In this exclusive interview, Paschal Taggart talks about:

• His regret and sorrow over Datalex

• Why the rich lists are a load of “bullshit”

• How he moved from a taxman to a dealmaker

• How a chance meeting led to the retail deal of a lifetime

• What it was like to negotiate with Don Tidey and Ben Dunne

• The behind the scene deal making to make Jervis Street happen

• The inside story of Paddy McKillen’s battles with Nama and the Barclay brothers

• How he got skittled on bowling alleys in Antrim

• Why his aversion to debt saved him from the crash

• The business figures he most admires

• His ten years at the helm of Bord na gCon

• The advice for the next generation of entrepreneurs

Sam Smyth (SS):  I’m talking to Paschal Taggart a man who minds his own business by minding other people’s businesses. Paschal has invested in technology, property, stock market, and he has even launched a newspaper. Thanks for coming along Paschal. Let’s hit the ground running. In June you resigned as chairman of Datalex, the airline data company. Why?

Paschal Taggart (PT): Sam, the only thing I cannot answer this morning is any question about Datalex. There have been financial irregularities. The shares are suspended, and I can say no more. I don’t want to say any more. 

SS: Well now, as a man who’s been around the block a few times I think, there appears to be difficulties with the books. Is that the problem? 

PT: Again, there’s definitely been difficulty with the books and that’s all I want to say about it. 

SS: Well listen, did you learn anything from that?

PT: You always learn. 

“A disaster. I take my full share of the responsibility. I’ve said that before and I’d say it again – but that’s all I can say.” 

SS: What did you learn from the Datalex thing?

PT: Again, you’re provoking me into discussing it. I honestly can’t. I just cannot do it.

SS: A lot of people put a lot of money into Datalex. Tell me what message would you have for those shareholders?

PT: Again, I don’t have a message. I resigned as the director some months ago and it’s up to the current directors to give that update. 

SS: Is there not a sorry?

PT: Of course. At the EGM I expressed my sorrow absolutely at what happened. I took responsibility for what happened. I apologised to shareholders. I apologised to staff. I apologised to any one affected. A disaster. I take my full share of the responsibility. I’ve said that before and I’d say it again – but that’s all I can say. 

“I always took small stakes in companies. I didn’t gamble. If I wanted to gamble, I would have backed horses and dogs. I didn’t gamble on businesses very much.” 

SS: Ok. Being a millionaire is not what it used to be, but the rich list says you’re worth €35 million. That must have seemed like a fairly impossible dream for a lad growing up in Antrim in Northern Ireland? 

PT: Well, that’s probably the greatest load of bullshit you’ve ever said, you know because way back in the 80s or 90s whenever we did the deal, I found myself in the wealth list of the Independent newspapers. And it was so far outrageously wrong that I wrote to the editor. I said: “I’m not worth this type of money. If I’m ever worth this type of money, I’ll be the first to let you know.” It hasn’t reached that stage yet. 

These rich lists are the greatest load of codswallop I’ve ever seen. I mean they don’t take into account debts; they don’t take into anything.

SS: Do they always exaggerate wealth rather than minimise it? 

PT: There’s no question. I mean the media can get a bashing and you’ve had your bashings but I think it’s nearly irresponsible, those rich lists. Some people like it because it helps them to deal with banks and deal with businesses and all that.

SS: Get a better table in a restaurant. 

PT: Yes, but the rest of the people say this is hateful and doesn’t represent reality. And in my case, it represented total unreality. So therefore, I put a stop to it, and I haven’t been there since. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to write in to correct it. Look, I always took small stakes in companies. I didn’t gamble. If I wanted to gamble, I would have backed horses and dogs. I didn’t gamble on businesses very much. 

The early years: Torpedo factories in Antrim and tax returns in London

SS: Tell me, growing up in the North, what did your family do? What was the background you came from?

PT: I was very fortunate because both of my parents worked. My father worked in security in the torpedo factory. And what people don’t realise is that for 25, 30 years, there was a torpedo factory in Antrim and that’s where they manufactured torpedoes and they had all these security people guarding them.

It wasn’t much of a job, but they were guarding their torpedoes and they had their guns and their batons and had all these things. And my mother was a nurse in Muckamore Abbey. So, we never wanted for anything because both were working, which was unusual in those days. Everything we wanted we got, within reason. We didn’t have the largess people have today.

SS: But you had a nice car, a nice house? 

PT: W had a very modest house. I mean the house was an admiralty house. Which then whenever they decided to leave Northern Ireland with the admiralty, they bought it at a reasonably cheap price. So, it was very modest but working class and always wanted to work.

SS: And where did then you then went down to work where? 

PT: I went over with the Revenue Commissioners in London in a beautiful place called Hinchley Wood outside Surbiton, where I was in the Surtax office as an executive officer. I was a Revenue Commissioner. And I loved it because there was football, there was tennis, there was bridge. It was good craic. And I didn’t find the job that challenging. And we’re dealing with all these Surtax offices and the biggest taxpayers in the UK. 

SS: Who, Elton John and these kinds of people?

PT: Yeah it could be them. We never met a client. We were sitting at our desk doing these forms, filing in these forms and we never asked any real questions because we didn’t have any information – unlike today, where everybody’s information is everywhere.

SS: But you must have been curious about those people? 

PT:  Not in the slightest. I was more interested in whether I going to be picked to be the centre forward for the football team on the next Saturday and when was the next training night. I had no curiosity at all.

“You were never immune to it because Antrim was a place where Catholics did join the police force and several of them got killed.”

SS: Well, how did you move from being a civil servant then? 

PT: Well you see, it is very, very simple. 

SS: Money? 

PT: No. I always found that luck was a big part of my life, a seriously lucky part of it. One day I was playing a tennis match against this chap from Spicer and Pegler, which was a well-known chartered accountancy firm in the UK. And he said to me: “Paschal, would you consider joining our firm?” And, of course, I always wanted to get back to Ireland. I never saw myself being in London, so I jumped at the opportunity and worked five years for Spicer and Pegler as a tax advisor.

SS: In Dublin or London?

PT: In London, in the city. So, we had all these big city types and again we’re doing tax planning for them. So, I was a tax planner. And then in ‘73 I got married and Helen saw an ad for Griffin Lynch on St Stephen’s Green. Maurice Davitt came over and offered me the job and that’s why I came back to Dublin, where I’ve been since 1974 and primarily as a tax advisor. 

SS: So, you missed out on the worst of the Troubles then in the North? 

PT: I missed all the Troubles. But we were not immune from the Troubles because I had a brother, even when we were Catholics, who was a policeman on Tennent Street in Belfast. 

SS: That’s on the Shankill Road, the real Protestant part. 

PT: He seemed to get through it alright. But again, you were never immune to it because Antrim was a place where Catholics did join the police force and several of them got killed. But fortunately, he’s still alive. He’s retired now. So, you were never immune from it. 

Breaking through: How a chance meeting led to the deal of a lifetime

SS: So, tell me how did you go from being an accountant to being an entrepreneur? 

PT: Again, a lot of luck. The luck factor’s incredible. I loved my job as a tax advisor, and we had some great clients. So, you just enjoyed meeting the clients and offering suggestions.

I was walking down just on Lower Baggot Street and I met this guy, Sean, who had been to University and school with me. We passed 11-plus together and he sat down beside me. We had become firm friends over the years in St Mary’s CBS in Belfast. And I’m walking down the road and here he is.

He’s a very bright guy. He’s a qualified engineer, mechanical engineer and he became an economist and he had this very big job with a very good company. He was actually in Sinn Fein/the Workers Party. Gilmore and Rabbitte, all these boys were, were in it at the time.

SS: Very left-wing wasn’t it? 

PT: Yeah. Well this guy was a gold fainne, left-wing socialist. So, he decided to go for election in Cabinteely where he had a big house. Of course, his bosses didn’t take too kindly to Sinn Fein/the Worker’s Party. They said don’t stand for an election or else you’ll go. So, I did his compensation with us and he bought the first Carraig Stores outlet in Dun Laoghaire. I was just was amazed when I saw this cash flow because he bought it very cheap. Within four weeks he had all his money back and he was making a fortune. I said there is something in this. So, I went over to America to look at the 7-11 chain and I came back and, low and behold, we started the 8-12 chain. In America, they used to get up earlier and go to bed earlier.

SS: So, you were a partner with this guy? 

PT: Yes, and with a couple of others – John Clohisey and a couple of other guys. And we bought our first store in Rathgar. It was incredibly successful. It was convenience food at its very best. People were working harder now so there’s a big demand and a lot of flat dwellers around. Purely by accident, that’s how I got into it and from there it just seemed easy.

SS: And then H Williams. How did that work? 

PT: H Williams came up on the market in liquidation.

SS: And they were a supermarket chain? 

PT: Yeah, a supermarket chain. I said this model will work for the H Williams stores as well. But we had no money. People always think you’ve money, we had no money at all. 

SS: But you’ve turnover.

PT: Yeah but we’d no cash. So anyway, I got together with Noel Smyth and we said we’ll buy this chain for €5 million or something like that. Then it kept going up and going up but in the meantime,  Noel did a deal with Don Tidey.

They wanted to buy four stores for €1 million each so that’s €4 million. And then we ran into Ben Dunne and we had this incredibly meeting with Ben. And Ben says “I want that, that, that, that and that and that’s all I’m going to pay you and furthermore I’m going to pay you half now and half in a year”. So we came outside and low and behold we thought that was a fantastic deal because he had had good value we had now sold nine stores to him.

“I don’t even remember the solicitors doing any papers. Now you couldn’t walk from here to the end of the street without being surrounded by them. Ben Dunne and Don Tidey, their word was a bond.” 

SS: Nine stores to him for about how much? 

PT: The figures are very easy. Four to Quinnsworth for four and we sold nine to him for nine or thereabouts. 

SS: A million each? 

PT: Yeah and then we bought 33 stores for 12 and a half.  So, we then had all these stores and I wanted to go out with Sean franchising them. Because I really wanted to franchise, and I thought there was some massive potential in them which turned out to be the case. But two or three weeks later SuperValu came along. They could have bought the whole damn thing, they should never have let us near it.

They said they wanted to buy another nine stores for nine million. And I wasn’t that keen because capital gains tax then was 60 per cent if you dispose in a year, 40 per cent for three years and 20 per cent if you had over three years. So, it wasn’t exactly the greatest deal but we did a leasing agreement with them, whereby they would lease for three years and then they’ll buy so we could enjoy a 40 per cent capital gain.

So, whenever the Independent’s doing the wealth list they look at the gross and they forget about the taxes, and they forget about the debts. So it was just one of those magic deals and it was purely based on the luck of me meeting Sean. 

SS: And you had all of these deals with Ben Dunne and various people. Were you sitting down surrounded by various contracts and bits of paper?

PT: Not at all. I never saw a solicitor. It was a handshake. And I’ll tell another big handshake was Jervis Street. I don’t even remember the solicitors doing any papers. Now you couldn’t walk from here to the end of the street without being surrounded by them. Ben and Don, their word was their bond

Handshakes and court cases: Building Jervis Street, working with McKillen and battling the Barclays

SS: So, tell me what was the Jervis street deal then? In Jervis Street I think you were with Paddy McKillen at that time. How did you meet Paddy? Did you know him from Belfast? 

PT: I was introduced to him through a cousin of this guy called Plunkett Devlin. We just struck it off even though we were two totally different people. He was more interested in art and buildings and architecture. And I was totally interested in sport. If you asked Paddy today about the Five in a Row, he’d say: “Is that buildings or hotels?”

Funnily enough his three kids went to Michaels. They were brilliant rugby players. All three of them captained Michaels senior ruby team and played for Leinster. Paddy had no interest. So, we got together in Jervis Street. I sourced the finance. 

SS: Although, just to go back a second, I understand Paddy is probably the fastest in the country at putting an exhaust on a Volkswagen Beetle?

PT: That’s correct. He’s the most modest man you’ve ever met. He’s so modest and that is the only boast I’ve ever heard him ever say – that he’s the fastest guy to change the exhaust in a Beetle. He left school at 16 and started the exhaust business with his father. 

“Arthur Ryan one of the most fascinating people I’ve ever met because he built up one store to a billion pound company.”

SS: Sorry I interrupted you there. But yourself and Paddy anyway, the Jervis Street deal what was that? 

PT: Well it’s very simple. He had a very good partner called Padraig Drayne, who’s a very good builder and the two of them worked 24/7, all around the clock. Paddy had these great schemes and he’s bringing in Debenhams and everyone. But in the middle of it was a Quinnsworth sports outlet. So, Paddy wrote to Don and asked him – will you sell, or vacate this middle part of the site?

SS: This is Don Tidey? 

PT: Yes. He came back and he said: “no we’re not interested in selling”. So, then I rang up Don who I knew very well. And again, he was so honourable. I said: “Don we have Debenhams coming in, we’ve got this and we need you to vacate that building.”  He said it was not his gig and it was up to Arthur Ryan.

SS: Of Pennys? 

PT: I had to go ring Arthur then. I rang Arthur and Arthur goes: “Yeah, yeah you’re going to do that you’re going to do that. Come down and see me”. Twenty minutes later he had done a deal for €86,000 and they moved out and then moved back in again.

Again, no solicitors – a handshake. Arthur one of the most fascinating people I’ve ever met because he built up one store to a billion-pound company. But him and I and John Clohessy and Jerry McGuinness, we owned Frawley’s on Thomas Street for 20 years. Could you imagine the comparisons of Frawley’s of Thomas Street and the Jervis centre and Quinnsworth and the whole lot. But again, fascinating. 

SS: Jervis Street was one of the most successful developments ever in this town.

PT: Timing was right.  Once you get your timing right by luck, then it’s easy. If the timing was wrong, you can do nothing about it. 

SS: And did you have skin in the game? 

PT: No, I didn’t take skin. I never liked debt. I hated debt. So, me and my partner took fees – as bits and pieces. I was chairman but I didn’t like the debt. 

SS: So, were you a professional advisor to Paddy?

PT: Not particularly. We were doing bits and pieces together. It was always interesting; he always gave me a look at things. He’d ask my advice on certain things, but he wouldn’t take it.

SS: Well you must have been there relatively recently then when there was the London Hotels and the Barclay twins who owned the Daily Telegraph in Britain and that was one of the most bitter business feuds most people here can remember. 

PT: Well you know that was David versus Goliath. Here was this wee man from Andersonstown in Belfast versus the multi-billion-pound Barclay brothers.

What happened then was that they brought the Green family’s interest through an offshore company and then they did a deal with Derek Quinlan. Now Derek couldn’t sell them the shares, because in the memorandum and articles of association, he had to offer them round. 

SS: Now Derek Quinlan, he was an investor with Paddy? 

PT: He was the initial investor. He put the whole hotel deal together and he brought Paddy in for 35 per cent, which Paddy paid up. Prior to that Paddy was very lucky because Nama wanted to take all his assets and tried to take them and Paddy was probably the first and only guy to take a case and win against Nama. 

SS: Michael Cush was his lawyer.

PT: Yeah, these Northern boys are tough. Not as tough as the Dublin or Kerry boys but that’s okay. Anybody that’s got time to spend should google the case – there is pages and pages and pages of this. But by the skin of his teeth Paddy actually defeated Nama.

SS: It was a technicality wasn’t it? 

PT: Well you know I think there’s a very good judge their called Hardiman who probably liked the smaller guy more so than the other guys.

SS: The late Adrian Hardiman?

PT: Correct. Nama could do what they liked; they had the powers to do what they like. They did a good job in the end so I’m not suggesting otherwise. But Paddy’s whole basis was that he always paid his interest, which he had. They didn’t care about that because they had to get money in and that’s their job.

So then in the middle of that, Nama sold the bank debt for a couple hundred million. Now they got full value for it, but they sold it to the Barclay Brothers. So, Paddy was under pressure there. Derek Quinlan forsaked Paddy and went to the side of the Barclay Brothers and committed his shares to them, which meant they got 66 per cent or something like that.

Now the only thing about it is you couldn’t transfer them. To transfer shares, you have to offer them round. Again, it’s in all the court papers where Derek received millions of charitable gifts from the Barclay Brothers to himself and his wife. There is a lot of questions. Again, read the papers. It’s all in Google – fascinating. Even when they sold, Derek got a lot of money out of it.

But the Barclay Brothers are Sir and Sir, and there’s no way the wee man from Andersontown was going to beat the system. So, he lost that and then he lost his appeal. You might think, so what? That is about €30 million in legal fees. Like it was David versus Goliath and if it was me or anyone else, I would say forget it, forget it. 

SS: And it was touch and go.

PT: Touch and go. Touch and go. For the wrong reason. Because he always paid his interest, he’s an honourable man and he was very badly treated in Ireland, he was very badly treated in the UK. You might expect the UK, but you wouldn’t expect it in Ireland. 

SS: And tell me, where you involved in, I think he was saved then by Qatar? 

PT: No, he was saved by Colony. No, I wasn’t involved in anything. To achieve what he was achieving, he was all around the world. He was in Qatar and Saudi Arabia. This wasn’t a solution in Ireland.

SS: What about Bono?

PT: Even he couldn’t provide a solution. People, I’m sure they exaggerate Bono’s wealth. 

SS: Well I think Bono went to see one of the Middle Eastern… 

PT: Oh that’s another story where he went and sold the Savoy – cause he bought four hotels and sold the Savoy. But you need massive bucks to take on the Barclay Brothers, the Barclay Brothers are worth billions you know. He met this guy in Colony. Then Colony put the money in and then the Qataris took the whole lot out and both Quinlan and the Barclay brothers made a lot of money on it. 

Win some, lose some: Boom, bust and bowling

SS: Tell me now, bowling alleys. You found a new way to lose money there?

PT: I have to admit I’ve found several ways of losing money. I mean people only look at the winners. I had a pal of mine, Michael, we got into bowling alleys with another Northern chap and for some reason we were attracted to doing something in Ballymena and Glengormley.

SS: Suburban…  

PT: Ah no this is like a guy going back to do a favour in Northern Ireland. A local guy made good, you know. Sure, we lost our tonsils. The ones we had in Tallaght and Cork were very profitable, but the North of Ireland? So, we ended up selling them. That’s life. 

SS: Well you lost a few quid. Tell me, the 2008 crash. How did you fare? 

PT: It didn’t bother me at all. Relatively speaking, I didn’t have any borrowings so therefore I didn’t have a big property portfolio. I had nothing to worry about because I was still working away. And a guy who will remain nameless, in 2007, I was having a meeting with him about something else and it was clear to him and my son Shane that the crisis was absolutely there.

My son worked for a bank in London and he’d done a deal for €650 million somewhere else and suddenly there’s no liquidity. It was obvious to this guy and people who were in the know that in August 2007 that a recession was coming, that a disaster was coming. Nobody knew the extent of it, but these guys had that information. 

SS: And tell me do you get any of the same feelings now at all?

PT: No because I haven’t got access to this guy. I’d like to meet him again to see what he is saying. My son worked out in NatWest and they just knew the liquidity crisis was there. It took the government and it took the banks another 9 months to realise there was a problem. 

SS: Nobody wants to know bad news, do they? 

PT: No, they don’t. There’s something like that where we are today. 

Working with workaholics: Advising Arthur Ryan, briefing PV Doyle, learning from O’Reilly

SS: So this is a game most people play at sort of parties and so on. People on the Rich List. Who do you admire? Who is your top three? Dermot Desmond, JP McManus, John Magnier, Michael O’Leary, Denis O’Brien, Margaret Heffernan, Tony O’Reilly. Which impressed you most and which of them disappointed you?

PT: Yeah, I’m not going to give you that qualification because it would be spurious. What I will say is that the people I had contact with over the last three or four decades. The first one is PV Doyle. He was an incredible visionary. He bought the hotel business from nothing to where it is today. You remember the Berkeley Court opening where you wouldn’t be allowed in if you hadn’t got a tie and that’s rightly so. 

SS: And it was decorated as my friend said in in the King Farouk style. 

PT: He died too young, but he was a tremendous visionary. I think all these guys have one thing in common – workaholics. 24/7, 7 days a week, 52 weeks in the year. I learned a lot just by being at his board meetings every week.

What I thought was interesting is we would go to the board meeting. I’d go up around half seven or half eight. It would be over by half nine, and myself and myself and George, another accountant, we’d go for dinner. PV would do another two hours.

The other it thought me, and it is still valid today, and I’m sure its valuable for the Currency News. The first question PV asked off George was: “What’s the bank balance?” And then we proceeded from there. When the bank balance was okay that told him a lot, and by god I don’t see any difference today

SS: Bottom line?

PT: Bottom line. And the next guy, a privilege to deal with, was Tony O’Reilly.  He was our client. He was unbelievable, he was head of Heinz, he was a fantastic Irishman, he was fantastic at everything and we just had so much good fun. He was by far the most brilliant and then he got lost in the Waterford Glass.  

SS: Yeah when you say the most brilliant, you mean intellectually or?

PT: No business wise as well, I mean he knew marketing. Even Heinz had gone very badly after he’d left? He was a marvellous marketer, intellectually he was good, he was a great businessman. And then he lost out. Like me going to to Glengormley and losing a few quid in the bowling alleys. He lost his money in Waterford Glass.? And he did so much for Ireland, the Ireland Fund. And he’s Sir Anthony O’Reilly so I better use that terminology, and he’d warranted it, he deserved it.

He did an enormous amount for everybody, and it was just a pleasure dealing with him. He’d start at half six in the morning and we’d always have the last meeting probably because we were doing his taxes, and of course he was delayed and meeting presidents. So, by the time he got to us it was only about an hour left of any evening.

And then the third one is Arthur Ryan. Arthur just a genius, in his own way. And what he did, what he achieved. And he’s a great friend of mine and a good friend of Paddy. We used to love going to dinner with himt. But again, his thing, stock in stock out, stock in stock out. He was good fun. And I wouldn’t comment on the other guys at all, because,. I didn’t work for them. 

Would you advise any of your wealthy clients to become tax exiles? “I did. We were tax advisors and we were asked numerous times: ‘Should we go non-resident?’ And you go through it with them. Most people decided not to, the price was too high.”

SS: The good, the bad and the ugly I suppose.

PT: Yeah, but that’s…they were three.

SS: Would you advise any of your wealthy clients to become tax exiles?

PT: I did. We were tax advisors and we were asked numerous times: “Should we go non-resident?” And you go through it with them. Most people decided not to, the price was too high.

SS: In terms of your reputation or in terms of –

PT: No, no, the price was too high for the way they wanted to live. Yu no longer were able to go to parent teacher meetings. If your son or daughter arrived home in a garda car at 15 or 16, too much to drink, I’m sure it never happened to you butyou just weren’t there. And it was always a strain. So, most of my clients who were very wealthy didn’t want to, no interest.

The ones that did nearly had to, they were international players. You take an international player with international finance, you bring 20 guys to the races, basketball or you bring 20 to Wimbledon. The Irish tax inspector: “Was your wife there?” “Disallowed”, you can’t do these things. And all these people are international, they’re all people who have to be looked after. So, I don’t think they could even perform their duties if they had to fill out a tax return.

And the second thing is that all of them that I know, I can’t think of an exception, they all have massive employment in Ireland, a lot of jobs, where there are no jobs, and they’re a massive factor to that economy. So, I don’t have a problem with them employing people, paying tax, PAYE and VAT in Ireland, building big houses. It’s their decision, you outline the difficulties, the potential, and most of them have no problem because the vast bulk of their earnings is from outside.

Gone to the dogs: Ten years chairing Bord ngCon

SS: Paschal, these are people you’d expect to pay tens of millions for a racehorse, somehow or another you were more associated with greyhounds along the way. When you were chairman of Bord na gCon, tell me, I think there was a heck of a turn up in the greyhound industry.

PT: Yeah I mean I was asked, probably a bad decision by the way, by Dick Spring and Jimmy Deenihan to become chairman of Bord na gCon in 1995, taking over from Kevin Heffernan. I spoke to Kevin, and I said we’d do it.

SS: And Kevin was a legendary Dublin football player

PT: Ah yeah, a good friend of mine. A tough man, when he’s picking teams, his teams went out to win, you know? But I was a director of Paddy Power at that stage, so therefore, it is one of my regrets, you’ve all these regrets but …

SS: You regret becoming a director of Paddy Power?

PT: No, I regret becoming a chairman of 10 years of Bord na gCon. Because I had to give up my Paddy Power job because a chairman cannot be a bookmaker. John Martin, who’s now deceased, with the Independent, I think you probably knew him, he brought this up and said that “Mr Taggart is not qualified to be chairman” so in my wisdom and brilliance and stupidity, I took the chairmanship of Bord na gCon and gave up Paddy Power.

And look at the way Paddy Power has gone and look at the way the greyhound industry has gone. So, it just shows you. My wife would remind me of this as well every now and again.

SS: Yeah but now, it wasn’t for money I’d presume?

PT: No no. I loved the ten years. You know, the greyhound industry is getting bad press at the moment, with that RTÉ programme, which was pretty biased I thought and didn’t give the good side of it, because 99 percent of the people in greyhounds are country people, and they look after their greyhounds as well as they look after their kids, and they’re fantastic people. All these antis are all Dublin 4, Dublin 6, Dublin 8 and they don’t have any relationship with the country.

Whereas I had, as I own greyhounds. I’m not for one-minute apologising or making excuses for what happened, but it’s not as bad as that.

SS: Although what you seem to be saying if I can cut through that the everyday Joe who owns a greyhound are salt of the earth people. And then there’s the official end of it, the governing boards and so on, which a lot of people are very suspicious of.

PT: I wouldn’t go as far as to say that at all. The boards try their very best, but in Ireland they’re not always the most competent of boards because as you know over the years, they’re mostly political appointments. So, they’re not as qualified as they should be. Obviously, they are trying to do that now and there are some very good people. I’m not knocking the boards. I was there for ten years where the terms went from 650 to 1.4 million, we built new tracks, and maybe I should have spent more time on the welfare issue then, and certainly since 2006 they should have spent more time on the welfare issue and certainly going forward they’ve got to spend more time on the welfare issue, so I’m not blaming them at all.

SS: There’s one thing now that’s been bugging me here, that is the sale of the Harold’s Cross track. Now it was sold for a multiple of the price that it was valued at. Around the same time it was bought by the Department of Education and the big suspicion at that time was that the difference in the price between what it was valued at and what the Department paid for it was almost the same as the outstanding debts of the Irish greyhound industry.

PT: Yeah, that could be a coincidence. I was in the periphery there, and it is certainly that you’re quite right as far as I’m concerned that the Department of Education paid double the price. And it’s still lying there you know, and I don’t see any plans going in for it and you just wonder why?

SS: Now there’s no suggestion there that somebody has got a scoopful of money

PT: No, no

SS: The suspicion there would be that this has covered up a lot of incompetence.

PT: I think that’s right, there has to be a certain degree of truth in that, and there’s nobody that got money from it. It’s always amazing. I think there’s another side where the Department of Education bought and haven’t done too much with it.

SS: Well there must be a load of money in the Department of Education. 

PT: There must be. You can’t get to school transport and you can’t get to this and you have to pay €23 million for Harold’s Cross two or three years so and it’s still sitting there. You can ask that question of the Department of Finance or Education.

How we launched The Title: Chairing a newspaper, flying with McGuinness

SS: You’ve been an very canny investor and cautious man. Tell me, why would a man with such a pristine background in being careful with other people’s money and their own, start a newspaper? 

PT: You might ask. Or why would you start The Currency.news you know? We won’t go into that one you know. So, that was a very funny story.

SS: That was back in 1997 you started Ireland on Sunday

PT: Yeah this is a true story Brian Phelan brought Cathal Dervin and Liam Hayes into the office. They are looking for 200 grand, the last 200 grand to do The Title. My partner Terry Cooney was very keen. I said: “It has not got a chance. Seriously it has not got a chance.” So, they came back again and Terry was very keen, and he’d tell you this. I said nobody advertises in a sports newspaper. You know, it hasn’t a chance.

I said if we put this money in, I don’t want to see you guys again. Six weeks later they were back. “You were right,” they said.  So, I said holy shit, we put in 200 grand and it’s going to be gone in six weeks. This is as bad as it’s ever been. So, I says I tell you what, can I give you an idea. The Title’s a very good sports paper, it was a good sports paper and still is a good sports paper. The Irish Press is gone, and I said there’s a market there for a Republican paper. This is my idea totally. I say, let’s do Ireland on Sunday, let’s do green, white and gold in the banner headline.

SS: This banner and your brother in the RUC.

PT: I know, you have to be flexible. It sold very well in Kerry and Cork and Belfast and Derry. We didn’t do very well in Dublin 4, Dublin 6 or Dublin 8. Does that surprise you? 

SS: No

PT: No. I remember one day, Paddy and I were going to America. Who was sitting in front of us, Martin McGuinness.

SS: Martin McGuinness, tell me was he at that time a minister in the North, was he part of the chuckle brothers with Ian Paisley?

PT: No, it was before that, just before that. But he had high profile obviously. We were sitting one row behind him and Paddy says I’d love to meet Martin McGuinness.

SS: On the plane or…

PT: On the plane 

SS: Would this be in business class?

PT: Yes of course. So anyway, we went up and I said Martin I’m the chairman of Ireland on Sunday and that was a great introduction. He said: “Oh we love that newspaper. We love that newspaper.” I said: “And this is Paddy McKillen from Andersostown”. So, then we had a lovely conversation you know, about this and that and the other thing. And then he says “We’ve got a car collecting us at the airport. Would you like a lift in?” I said no I’m ok. As we’re going out the door he pops straight left to security. He was probably in New York before we’d even got to customs. It was very, very funny. 

SS: So he was looked after at that. Tell me as regard to the newspaper, did you end up making a few quid? 

PT: We did yes. We did actually make money.

Advice? Its all about cash (flow)

SS: So listen, we’re pushing up here now about time. Tell me now you’ve been round a few corners. You’ve taken a few hits and made a few quid. What did you learn through the booms and the busts?

PT: That luck is a big part. If you’re in the right place at the right time you’re a genius and if you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time you’re a fool. And that still is the case. You say what you like and read all the things you like and go to University and do all these things but if you call it wrong, if you call the timing wrong, you call it wrong and if you get it right you get it right. Now there are people I’m sure who don’t depend on boom and bust but I think we all depend on some type of boom and some type of bust you know or don’t like the busts and love the booms you know. 

SS: Have you any advice?

PT: People think you can make entrepreneurs but there’s a whole level of experience. Cash flow is the big thing. If you show me a business and its cash flow is okay there’s never any problem. And I’ve never got away from that you know. If you show me that you’re struggling to pay the cheque, pay the wages then you’ve got problems. And obviously you’ve got to access the markets and there’s great tools now for accessing markets. But if you take the hundreds and thousands of new ideas there’s only 2,500 that work.

SS: Well there is and there’s Spar and there’s 7-11. You spotted that fairly early didn’t you? 

PT: Yeah but even that’s changed and you can see it changing. I mean, convenience was always 7-11 Spars but now that’s gone to the petrol stations you know if you just think about it. And the petrol stations now have a big problem of what to do with electric cars. So they’re not going to get fuel sales in a 10 years’ time. Dunnes Stores has been a fantastic success but they’ve got great locations to cover. But they’ve also upgraded its products, upgraded their style. They know what they’re doing. So if you’ve got a good business with a good location then you’ve got a very good business. But if you haven’t got a good business where its marginal there’s trouble and if you keep just changing.. Like where’s the car industry going? 

SS: Well listen they all o on anyway. We’re running out of time now so I’d like to thank Paschal Taggart and I’d like to thank you for listening to the podcast for The Currency. 

PT: Sorry, could I just wish The Currency news every success. I haven’t had a look at you bank balance sheet, your projector profit and all that, but your contributors are fantastic. You know so best of luck.