Stories
Michael Dawson’s career is an entrepreneur to his core – and has been an entrepreneur from the age of eight. as such, many of his insights are valuable to the both established and aspiring entrepreneurs. In this interviews, he talks about:
- Running a shop at the age of eight
- Marrying his hobby of youth work and politics
- Entrepreneurial spirit in Irish politics
- Booking out the RDS for Italia 90
- Going with his gut and visualising a “physical picture” when entering a new business venture
- Selling One4All to billion-euro company Blackhawk
- A future in music and possibly working Stateside
Alison Cowzer (AC): Michael is founder of One4All and he’s been an entrepreneur all his life – from the age of eight. He’s been a senator, a salesman, involved in youth work. He’s an EY Entrepreneur of the Year finalist, father of three grown up boys. He’s been widowed. Is now newly married. And he’s just sold his business One4All for a reported €100 million. You’ve been an entrepreneur pretty much all your life. You actually started at the age of eight. Did you always realise that business was for you?
Michael Dawson (MD): Not necessarily. I always enjoyed achieving things. I never felt there was any risk in anything I did. So, I was never intimidated or inhibited by doing anything I was asked to do.
So, I suppose from a very early stage, and the fact that the principle of my national school entrusted me to start off and run a shop in the school at the age of eight and entrusted me with the keys of the school. Now it was a very small school. It was a three-classroom school in Baldoyle. But it gave me a sense of responsibility, of independence.
Again, my father would have been very similar. He was in business. He always had a sort of ‘can do’ attitude. There was nothing that you couldn’t do. Whether it was painting at home or whatever, I remember him encouraging me to paint the front gates of the house and there was more paint on the ground all over the place than there was on the gates. But that was it. He’d come home and say: “Well done great job.”
AC: So, I suppose it was business all the way then. Looking back through your career, you’ve been involved in everything from a showcase for Italia ‘90, lottery cards, greeting cards, drive-in cinema. I mean it’s a pretty varied career.
I had been involved locally in Fianna Fail because I always felt that was a party that could get things done.
MD: I wouldn’t call it business all the way. I would call it certainly entrepreneurial all the way. Because I actually started, my career was in youth work. I had no intention of sort of going into business. But when I started, I was one of the first full time youth officers ever to be appointed in Ireland and did a lot of ground-breaking activities and policies that are still there today would have been stuff I brought in to the field back in the very late ’70s.
I saw my career sort of change from youth work to politics then because Fianna Fail had advertised for a national youth organiser and I had been involved locally in Fianna Fail because I always felt that was a party that could get things done. I said ok well look, I can combine my hobby with my job and I went for the job of national youth organiser. During that particular time the national organiser of the party passed away just during the period of the interviews and they asked me then would I take on the more senior role of national organiser.
AC: So, you went straight in at a pretty senior level?
MD: Yeah. A far higher level than perhaps I should have been in. I was punching way above my weight. The national organiser of the Fianna Fail party was traditionally a job reserved for an elder lemon and here’s this young Turk that knew nothing really about it. I sort of knew that I needed to get a job done and I didn’t have any allegiance to certain people. So really, I suppose maybe it was recognised that I fitted the bill pretty well because I was going to get whatever needed to be done.
And again, I brought an entrepreneurial spirit to that job and created some things that were never done in that party before that were very effective and are still very effective up to now.
Sitting in the Seanad with Friel and Robinson
AC: You went onto become, I think, Ireland’s youngest senator?
MD: I was yeah, and again, I would contend that in the wisdom of the great CJ Haughey that he recognised the genius in me. So yeah, he appointed me to the Senate, the 18th Senate, in 1989 and I think I was the youngest person ever to get a Taoiseach’s appointment.
AC: So, you were in Senate with figures like Mary Robinson I believe. Was she there at time?
MD: She was there at the time.
AC: And Brian Friel I think. So, there was a very diverse group in the Senators at the time.
MD: There was and unfortunately my spell in the Senate was only very short but still very, very enjoyable.
I think the downturn in ’08 saw a lot of the bigger companies pull back whereas the indigenous companies survived, and small companies even prospered in some cases.
AC: We don’t have a lot of businesspeople in politics, at the moment, with that entrepreneurial spirit. Do you think it’s missing?
MD: Oh, it’s absolutely missing. We have the likes of Pádraig Ó Céidigh who has come from business, still in business and now in politics. We had Feargal Quinn, another legend in his time. That brought a lot of legislation through the Senate that he could see first-hand and seriously affected.
I think Pádraig Ó Céidigh is doing the exact same thing right now. Just recently, he’s bringing in a Bill on perjury. You know we’ve all seen those situations where, particularly in the insurance fraud claim cases, where people stand up in court and put their hands on the bible, they’d swear to tell the whole truth.
AC: I suppose he’s taking very business-related topics and bringing them to fruition in terms of legislation. But the whole business approach, in terms of the entrepreneurial approach in politics, do you think that’s important?
MD: I think it is and I think, probably, the Government are listening a little bit more now than they did in the past. I think the downturn in ’08 saw a lot of the bigger companies pull back whereas the indigenous companies survived, and small companies even prospered in some cases. It’s been recognised now that you’ve got to look at these companies and not put all your eggs in one basket with the big multinationals. Obviously, they serve a role, and they’re very, very important, but the small businesses play an even bigger role in helping the economy and sustaining jobs.
I think that’s recognised now through the alumni of Ernst and Young which I’m on the board of. We’ve had very, very strong engagement for the last two years with governments and opposition people involved in business portfolios.
AC: So, cementing that relationship between those two worlds?
MD: Not only cementing but drawing up serious papers on everything from that question of insurance to the question of shortage of labour force, the taxation system. A lot of stuff that we’ve been explaining to them and going into quite a lot of detail to help them understand. Because is it politically advantageous to give big fat businessmen tax breaks? No it’s not.
AC: Business men or women.
MD: Business men or women, Alison I’m glad you raised that point.
MD: But is it advantageous? It takes a bit of guts for government to sort of get the whole picture and be prepared to take the slack in the greater interest. And explain it to people that, you know, it is in the interest to have businesspeople re-invest their profits and they’re probably the best people equipped to re-invest their profits from a business.
Selling out the RDS for Italia ’90
AC: Okay, maybe just back to your career particularly Michael. I mean, I mentioned the variation that’s there on the business side, I mean there isn’t a blue-chip pattern in there. There’s no McKinsey, there’s no Unilever. You’ve really got in on the ground floor of the businesses you got involved in and built them right from the start.
MD: I think the first serious business attempt was back in 1990. The year, as everybody knows, that we technically won the World Cup because we beat England. That was a time when you were listening to people giving out about the price of tickets for Italy and the logistics of getting out to Italy. And, of course, the whole of Ireland was on fire with the World Cup. So, we decided, I kind of came up with idea of you know why shouldn’t we bring a little bit of Italy to Ireland?
I spoke to the late Jim Aiken because he was involved in that whole event, management, concerts and that. Jim said to me, Lord have mercy on him, he said to me that he’d be going to Italy himself, so he wasn’t going to do it. But it kept bugging me. I said somebody has to do this. So, I started to make enquiries with the RDS and see. So, I said look, it’s available so just hold those dates for me and then I started to enquire as to the technology.
AC: So again, really risky for an individual to go and book out the RDS on some idea that there might be a few people out there that would like to see the match who couldn’t get to Italy.
MD: That’s a lovely question Alison. So, what I did was, first of all, I suppose it’s been a trait throughout my life, I only want to do things really, really well and I wasn’t prepared to do it unless I got the best.
So, big screen technology, back then, questionable as to whether it was good, it wasn’t really at its best, but there was a research and they found that General Electric in Syracuse in upstate New York had just developed some very serious projection machines. The only issue was that they were IR£90,000, back then, each and I needed four of them to pull off my plan properly. To create that stadium effect.
AC: I mean I was there. I remember being in the RDS. It was a stadium effect, and I suppose the question was, like all good ideas, how come no one else thought of it?
MD: Probably people did think of it. Lots of people will tell you every day of the week, and I don’t ever contradict them, they all say “I thought of that” and I say “yep.” But like the old Nike ad, did you do it?
To be honest, I don’t think I would have ever done it had I stopped to consider all the risks.
AC: Is that what it’s about? Is it about taking some hairbrained idea and actually putting a plan around it and executing it?
MD: Just to go back on the question of the risk. I mitigated the risk by going to General Electric and said look, if I buy two of these. Now I hadn’t got a red cent, I hadn’t got any money. But I said: “If I buy two of these for IR£90,000 back in 1990, would you give me the loan of two of them?” And they said they would, so I said: “okay great”.
So, I came back to Ireland and because the technology was so new I went to a leading audio visual company here in Ireland and said “look would you buy one of these off me and I’ll rent it off you for IR£25,000 for the duration of..”
AC: Okay, so you were dealing in the technology as opposed to the event.
MD: Well so now I have three machines, so I only had to find the money for one. So, I put all the tickets on sale and fortunately it sold-out. So, I bought the other one.
Did I take a risk? The answer, and I’d have to put my hand on my heart and say, no I didn’t take a risk, because I never stopped to consider what the downside would be. And it was only after the event that people said: “God you know, fair play to you. You made a fortune on that. You know, but you took a huge risk.” And it was only then I started to think that ‘Jesus, this could have gone wrong and that could have gone wrong’ and to be honest, I don’t think I would have ever done it had I stopped to consider all the risks.
Turning a profit from gifts and vouchers
AC: And has that been your approach? I mean coming into One4All and building what was not just a business that was the same as everybody else’s or even a better version of it. I mean this was entirely new as a concept.
MD: Ok, so in case I’m ever looking for finance in the future, may I say that no, I don’t take any risks anymore.
AC: If the banks are listening.
MD: I still go with my gut. And I’ll say to people, look if I have a good idea and I’m going to go for it, I create this physical picture in my head.
AC: You actually visualise it?
MD: I absolutely visualise, and I visualise what either the product or the company’s going to look like in a years-time, in three years-time, in five years-time and in 10 years-time.
AC: And on service business, how does that look? I mean how do you create that in your head?
MD: Well in the service industry back 18 years ago, in 2001, I said we were going to be a half a billion turnover business in the gift voucher shop. And at the time we sold it we were heading for €400 million turnover. So, I’d say this year we’ll probably be scraping towards the €500 million.
If I do believe in something, well then it’s going to happen and it’s never not happened. Failure is just not contemplated.
AC: So that’s your journey. Your map is in your head before you start. Is that comforting in terms of direction? It gives you a direction to aim for?
MD: It gives me the confidence to pull everybody along and to get them to share. In any of the businesses, going back to the World Cup, I built a great team around myself to pull that off.
In One4All we’ve built a huge really strong team of talent. But they haven’t just been talent working on a contract basis or in isolation. They’ve been a talent that has bought into the dream. Bought into the vision. Bought into my vision. They say: ‘your enthusiasm is everything as well and you can’t avoid but catch a little bit of your enthusiasm if you spend a bit of time with me.’ If I do believe in something well then it’s going to happen and it’s never not happened if I do believe something. Failure is just not contemplated.
AC: You mentioned doing everything at the highest level. It has to be the best quality. It has to be recognised as such. Does that make you prone to micromanagement?
MD: Yeah it does yeah. Isn’t that terrible. Now I’ve got over it.
AC: Would your team say you’ve got over it?
MD: I think at this stage they probably would. But would they have had to put up with it for the first 10 years, at least? Yeah, they would have had to. Once I identify somebody that can do the job as well as I can do it. I know that sounds sort of condescending or arrogant. But once I’m convinced that somebody can actually do the job, then I don’t want to see it. Like in the last five years people “would say come back Michael and start micromanaging.” I’ve no interest. Once I know that you can do the job, you go off and do it. But I suppose it’s been my vision. I see what the end journey is like, so I know what it’s going to look like, so I know what needs to be done. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I don’t know but we sold the business for quite a lot of money. So, it mightn’t be too bad.
Making the decision to sell
AC: And on that point. I mean, starting a business from absolutely nothing in an area that’s entirely new. So, you’ve created it, you’ve created the vision, you’ve built the team, you’ve built the business and then, as you say, you’re hitting huge numbers in terms of turnover and profit. Was it really hard to make the decision to sell?
MD: No. It wasn’t. Again, you’re not the first person to ask that question. People say: “God you’re never going to let go of that.” I have never been that possessive about the company as being my company, because from very early days it wasn’t my company because I had to bring investors on board. So, for the last 15 years I’ve been answerable to one team or another team in the last seven/eight years..
AC: You had An Post.
MD: We had An Post, who were brilliant partners. But still, they had 53 per cent of the company. At the end of the day, they very seldom interfered. But they were always there to watch and sort of keep me in check and make sure I did things right.
AC: Was it an issue as an entrepreneur knowing that somebody else had a slight majority of your business?
MD: No. It was actually probably a little bit comforting. Obviously if you have the right partner. Now over the years we didn’t have the right partners and we had to get rid of some of our partners over the years. And that was tough. It was tough to get them on board in the first place and then it was twice as hard to get rid of them. They were working against us and it wasn’t good for business and very distracting.
AC: So, many people who found a business believe there’s going to be a big cheque at some point. That someone’s going to role up and say: “I’d like to buy your business.” But, how do you prepare your business for sale if you believe that will happen at some point?
MD: It wasn’t that we believed it would happen. I suppose we were always hoping it would happen. The company that bought us, Blackhawk, were the biggest in the world and ironically, they were sot of started the same year as we started and yet they were sold last year for 3.6 billion. But we always reckoned that we probably had better products than Blackhawk. We liked their style, we liked their management systems and we reckoned that if anyone was to actually go and buy us they would be..
AC: So you chose them really as a target?
MD: We were like the little orphans, sitting like you know, pick me, pick me, pick me. We were actually hoping, but obviously we couldn’t make that too obvious because that could hamper the price.
It was more than just selling the business. Selling the business to the right partner, making sure that the legacy and the hard work and the blood that you spilt in the last 17 years is going to find a nice home and more importantly, the team that shared your vision for the last 17 years, they were going to be well accommodated and they were going to find a nice home. Because a lot of them are younger than I am, and a good few years, so I wanted to make sure their careers were still on a path.
AC: And that dynamic of being for sale, maybe not overtly but certainly the eternal team would be aware of it, how difficult is it to keep everybody motivated with that going on in the background?
MD: We’d no problems at all. It was a distraction for very senior management because we had a lot of reports to do and presentations to do and it really was a pain in the butt doing all that sort of stuff. But then when it got down to the question of due diligence, that was really, really painful. Fortunately, I’ve a great team and my financial director there, Paul Larkin, did a fantastic job in handling all of that. I wouldn’t have the patience for that sort of stuff.
Life after the sale: what next?
AC: So, I suppose you’ve had a number of businesses, you’ve been in some cases not successful, you’ve had a lot of challenges along the way. You could call this the beginning of your second life in one sense. You’ve made a killing, you’ve had the big deal, you just got married again. What’s next?
MD: What’s next? Retirement would sound really really, good wouldn’t it? But that’s not going to happen. Look, I’ve had a good few more businesses, as you know. I was the person who convinced the government to bring in the bikes to work scheme here in Ireland. It took about five years of convincing them, but they finally brought it through and now it’s one of the best initiatives they’ve ever brought out.
AC: They’re all big things you’ve been involved in.
MD: Yeah, that was a big initiative and I’ve always had an interest in cycling. I’ve a partnership in a cycling rental and training and tourism business based out there by Malahide Castle. I’ve lent my partner there no support over the last number of years because I was concentrating on One4All. That’s a business I’d like to get involved in and help develop.
I just think, personally, it’d be cool to be sitting on a ‘curb side’ on 57th street eating a slice of pizza and looking at a One4All that I just bought in Walmart.
I’m seriously into music and the teaching of music. Our family have been an extremely strong musical family. My eldest son has just become a doctor in music. Probably one of his happiest moments as he doesn’t have to be called Michael Dawson Jr anymore. He’s losing the Jr and now become a doctor.
AC: So, is there another business in you?
MD: Yeah, I think so. I’m not too sure if it’s another business that will ever be financially as successful as One4All has been. Finance hasn’t really motivated me but certainly we are looking at developing the Irish Institute of Music and Voice which will be sort of an international institute and bring choral music and choir music over to Ireland for further education and that’s something that I’d be very passionate about and it’s been something me and Michael Jr, or doctor Dawson, have been working on for the last number of years and is something I’d like to support.
AC: So out of all that various experience, career ups and downs, I mean, what’s on your bucket list at this stage?
MD: I can knock two things off my bucket list there. I suppose on the honeymoon. I suppose three I suppose. Getting re-married again to Maria was high on my bucket list. I visited South Africa, which was a wonderful place, for our honeymoon. And I went up in a balloon, which I was really dying to do all my life. I had one booked previously in Egypt, but it was called off because of weather conditions so I was dying to go up in a balloon and that was everything I expected it to be.
So, I spent a lot of years travelling. Like many people in business, I saw most of the great airports around the world and most of the lovely hotels around the world but not the cities or anywhere else. I would like to spend a little bit more time travelling.
Blackhawk have asked me to get involved in the development of some of the more new products and the expansion of their business across Europe which is very flattering and something I’m seriously considering for the next couple of years because..
AC: Keep a hand in I suppose..
MD: Yeah, keep a hand in and it’s something I really love to do. I mean if, Dave sort of said previously that, they would like to see One4All in America. I just think, personally, it’d be cool to be sitting on a ‘curb side’ on 57th street eating a slice of pizza and looking at a One4All that I just bought in Walmart or somewhere like that. I just think that’d be it, you know.
AC: That’s a very positive not on which to finish. Michael Dawson it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you.
MD: My pleasure. Thank you.
