Fianna Fáil TD Jim O’Callaghan is a towering figure. Both in stature and in Fianna Fáil. Although he has been cast to the backbenches of the Dáil in this government, he was once part of the party’s inner circle during the 2016 confidence and supply negotiations and even held a key meeting in his house. He is also tipped to become the new party leader after Taoiseach Mícheál Martin.

Despite not being picked for Cabinet, he tells Sam Smyth he still gets on well with Martin and that there was never any falling out between them. He adds that people need to pull behind the Taoiseach now. It is therefore surprising that he chose to publicly take a different stance to Martin on the firing of former Minister for Agriculture Barry Cowan and the resignation of former EU Commissioner Phil Hogan (this discussion took place on The Currency podcast which was recorded just before Hogan’s resignation).

He talks about all of this with Sam, as well as how he would not be against going into government with Sinn Féin, his life in law, and his regret in not taking his passion for rugby seriously when he was younger.

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Sam Smyth (SS): Hello, I’m Sam Smyth and you’re listening to my podcast with The Currency. My guest today is Jim O’Callaghan, now a backbencher but seen by many as the leader of Fianna Fáil in waiting.

Jim, the current Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Green Party coalition is the most unstable and unpopular government that many of my friends can ever remember. Are you glad not to be in it?

Jim O’Callaghan (JO’C): Well, I don’t know if you can say Sam – it’s the most unpopular ever. It’s only been in office for eight, nine weeks. It’s had a difficult start, there’s no doubt about that. But I suppose we need to look at the circumstances in which the government came into power. We’re going through a pandemic. We’ve had a severe downturn in our economy. There’s significant unemployment and there are huge challenges facing the country.

SS: Absolutely. But the difficulty is that everybody wants – we’re all in this together, we must put our shoulder to the wheel. But the government doesn’t seem to be getting much traction from the public.

I mean, the people are putting up with it, but there’s no real affection for the government that I can see.

JO’C: Well, when you go back to the election, I suppose in order to look at the government, you have to look at the election which was back in February, and nobody got a victory in that election. Obviously, Sinn Féin did very well, did better than people expected. But I don’t think many people would have predicted before the election, say this time last year, that we’re going to have involved Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Greens.

Huge effort went into putting the government together. We got a government, the country desperately needed a government. I think the July stimulus package was very good, I think if we get the children back to school, that’s going to be a huge benefit to the country and it’ll change public attitudes to the government. It just needs to stabilise and settle down a bit, the government as well.

SS: Except we haven’t mentioned the elephant in the room, which is of course, the golf fiasco in Clifden.

Now you’ve been saying since last weekend that the EU commissioner, Phil Hogan, should remain in office in the national interest. Does that mean that prudence is more important than principle and that keeping big Phil in business is good for Irish business?

JO’C: Well first of all, I was very angry about what happened in Clifden last week. And I know the vast majority of members of the Oireachtas were, like the word has gone out –

SS: Well there were an awful lot of them there, there was nearly a third of them there?

JO’C: No, there were eight members of the Oireachtas there. 

SS: Well it’s the Oireachtas Golf Society.

JO’C: I know there was only eight members at the dinner and there’s nothing wrong with people going to play golf.

SS: Not at all.

JO’C: And people went and played golf. There were eight members of the Oireachtas at the dinner. They shouldn’t have been there. But it’s important to remember there are 218 members of the Oireachtas.

SS: Well there were 81 people there, presumably invited by the politicians. It was a political event.

JO’C: Yeah, I agree, it was a very foolish thing to go ahead with it. But can I say this, there has been political accountability for the mistakes that were made and for the actions that took place in Clifden. Dara Calleary resigned, I think last Friday morning, Jerry Buttimer, and the whip was taken off the senators. And obviously there is intense emphasis and concentration on the position of the Commissioner Hogan.

I don’t know Commissioner Hogan, I attended a speech he gave once. The way I look at it, I don’t look at it from the point of view of Phil Hogan. I look at it from the point of view that Ireland holds the trade portfolio in the Commission. The difference between, say, Dara Calleary and Phil Hogan is that I know next week we’re going to have a minister for agriculture. I don’t know if Phil Hogan goes, whether or not Ireland’s going to hold the trade portfolio.

SS: Sorry Jim but, every EU commissioner swears an oath not to favour their home country, the expectation is that. Phil Hogan, or whoever is the commissioner, will look after Ireland when they’re in charge of trade. That’s the unspoken bit of what you’re saying there at the minute, is it not?

JO’C: Yeah, the theory of politics is those people who are appointed, whether they’re ministers or commissioners, approach their task without any hinterland behind them, but the reality of politics is whether you’re a minister coming from a particular constituency or a commissioner coming from a country, you certainly are going to be more aware of the needs of your constituency and country, particularly if you’re a commissioner.

And listen, the reason why I think it’s in the national interest is, if the choice is on these crucial trade talks, not only with America but in the context of Brexit, if the choice is between a French politician who may bring the French emphasis as to what they want from trade with the UK or an Irish politician, I would prefer to have an Irish politician because I believe it’s in the national interest. But he was foolish to attend it, he has to account for his behaviour.

SS: But it’s not just that, he was in the country from the 31st of July I think, he’s made six or seven statements so far, plus one to Europe. And every time you learn a little bit more, is that not embarrassing?

JO’C: It is embarrassing and he hasn’t handled it well, but as I say to you Sam, I’m not here to defend him. Like if somebody said, yes we can swap out Phil Hogan and we can put another Irish person in as the commissioner for trade, I then wouldn’t really care what happens to Phil Hogan.

SS: I can see, but I know that you were very sympathetic to your colleague Barry Cowen when it emerged, now he faced the full rigour of the law, he was prosecuted and put off the road, which is what the law says.

Phil Hogan was stopped by the guards when he was speaking on a mobile phone and he wasn’t prosecuted, he was given a verbal warning. Is that fair?

JO’C: Again, I’m not here to defend Phil Hogan. The only point I make is that I believe it’s in the national interest of this country to retain the trade portfolio in the commission. And I’m concerned that if he resigns, we lose that. In terms of Barry Cowen, the circumstances are completely different. The reason why I thought it was unfair that Barry Cowen lost his job was because he committed an offence, he was apprehended committing the offence, he was prosecuted and he paid the penalty, and he served the sentence. He did all of that.

SS: And he was a borderline case, could he have been given a verbal warning I wonder?

JO’C: I know, I thought he was in a much different situation. And I thought, having served his sentence, that he didn’t deserve to lose his job. And as well as that, what really damaged Barry Cowen was the fact that confidential information was disclosed by An Garda Síochána, to a third party and put into the public domain to damage a politician. I think that’s damaging.

SS: Well, the same people, I think, perhaps revealed information about Commissioner Hogan, although I understand that there is a provision for the garda commissioner to inform the minister for justice if something comes up that may be of interest.

JO’C: That’s correct. So there’s no defence to what happened in Barry Cowen’s case on the part of Garda Síochána, that information from Pulse should not have gone out to a third party. However, in the case of Commissioner Hogan, there was a legitimate statutory basis for the garda commissioner to inform the minister for justice about an issue that he thought that government should be kept apprised of and he did that.

SS: What about Mr Justice Seamus Woulfe? A Supreme Court judge, what will happen if big Phil sails into the sunset, as you think would be right for him to do and a lot of people expect that to happen, and he is expected to commit professional hari-kari.

JO’C: Well listen, I don’t think it’s right for big Phil to sail into the sunset. I’m not a supporter of his. I’m supportive of Ireland’s holding of the trade portfolio. That is a legitimate national interest. It’s a positive position we have. I think we’re crazy to try to give it up.

SS: No matter what they do? So therefore that excuses what ever they do.

JO’C: It doesn’t, what you do is, you weigh up the different balancing factors. On the one hand, there is his misconduct, his undeniable misconduct. On the other hand, there is Ireland’s interest in holding a trade portfolio in the commission. I just think that we should weigh them up as opposed to just automatically saying, forget about Ireland’s national interest. In terms of Mr Seamus Woulfe…

SS: He presumably went along to that function, expected people inviting him somewhere to provide it in a way that it wasn’t going to turn out to be the fiasco is was.

Fianna Fáil TD Jim O’Callaghan says he would be honoured to be leader of the Fianna Fáil party. Photo: Bryan Meade.

JO’C: Can I say this. I think the people, I don’t know about Phil Hogan, but the people I know, Dara Calleary, the senators I know, Seamus Woulfe, I believe that if somebody had said to these people, listen, not only are you going into an event that’s in breach of the regulations, but you’re in breach of the guidelines that were announced the day before that they would have said ‘oh God’, I don’t think they were thumbing their nose and saying we can go ahead and do what we want.

SS: No but somebody in there organising it did, and they decided we’re going to do it like this.

JO’C: I agree with you, there is a difference between organising the event and attending the event because it’s a criminal offence to organise an event indoors with more than 50 people during Covid. But it’s not a criminal offense to attend such an event.

SS: Well the guards are looking into it.

JO’C: They are, but what they’re investigating is the organisers. Now, there may be asking people who were there.

SS: But is it possible then that whoever organised it could be prosecuted?

JO’C: Well, I’m not going to interfere with any Garda investigation, but I would have thought that there was a good chance that the organisers of that event could be prosecuted for breaching the regulations.

SS: Do you think that there’s more justice in prosecuting them than firing Phil Hogan or Mr. Justice Seamus Woulfe?

JO’C: Well, I think it comes back to the Barry Cowen thing as well. Our law sets out penalties for people who engage in misconduct, criminal misconduct. The penalty for drunk driving is you’re off the road for a period of time, that’s it. In terms of these regulations, there’s a penalty for people who organise an event indoors for more than 50 people. That’s where culpability lies in the criminal law. However, the people didn’t comply with the guidelines. Dara Calleary, Seamus Woulfe, Phil Hogan, there’s no suggestion that they committed a criminal offense, but they certainly didn’t comply with the guidelines and that’s where their problem rests.

SS: Well did they not bring politics into disrepute by being there?

JO’C: They did bring politics into disrepute, unquestionably, when you look to see what has happened, they unquestionably brought politics into disrepute.

SS: But that’s not illegal, otherwise the jails would be full?

JO’C: Yeah well listen, we could talk about journalists, Sean O’Rourke is a person that the people of Ireland know better than probably any of the politicians.

SS: Well he’s paid a big price, he has lost the one broadcasting job that he has.

JO’C: People have paid, listen, I’m very angry about what happened. But one thing I’m not going to do in politics is join a witch hunt and be extremely judgmental about people and condemn them for the rest of their lives. I think the Irish public now, Sean O’Rourke is a decent guy, he’s paid a penalty for it, Dara Calleary has paid a penalty for it. The senators have paid the penalty for it. And I’m sure Seamus Woulfe and Phil Hogan in some way or another will have a penalty to pay as well.

And I suppose the question you’re inquiring is, should it be the ultimate penalty? I think you need to look at the different circumstances of different people. Seamus Woulfe is in a very unique situation. If he resigns, he’s gone, he’s losing his job completely.

SS: Well he can’t operate as a barrister again because he can’t appear in courts.

JO’C: Yeah, so he’s only been appointed. So I just think we need some proportionality. There were very foolish in what they did, they engaged in misconduct, there was wrongdoing there. But I’m not going to be completely judgmental and say that these people need to be shunned from public life forever. Let’s be realistic about this. We’re in a very unusual time in our history as well. People have found this pandemic very difficult.

And if you look at what happened in Clifden where we were going through the summer, it looked like the restrictions were loosening, we’d got over the worst of it. Is there a person in this country who hasn’t breached the guidelines in some way or another? Have you been two metres near me today Sam?

Let’s be realistic about this, it’s hard and it’s difficult. Now, this was an obvious error, this was an obvious breach.

SS: Except 81 buckos in a room…

JO’C: I agree with you. But I just think we need to recognise it’s a highly unusual time. They are paying a huge penalty for it. They will continue to pay a penalty. But let’s not turn it into a complete witch hunt.

SS: And the people are very unhappy at the minute.

Listen, how many seats do you think Fianna Fáil, the Green Party and Fine Gael would win should there be a snap election?

JO’C: I don’t know the answer to that question.

SS: Do you think you would be re-elected in Dublin Bay South?

“Well, we now have two elephants in this very small room, myself and Phil Hogan. There won’t be much space for you if we put another one in here.”

Jim O’Callaghan

JO’C: That’s a good question. I don’t know, Fianna Fáil at present in the polls isn’t doing well. And I don’t know what would happen if there was an election called, it depends on the circumstances of an election. You’re an experienced political observer. Elections generate a momentum of their own, I think a lot of people would have been surprised at what happened in February, the momentum there in the election.

SS: Although they rarely buck the trend.

JO’C: Well, I think, if we were looking in November last year, some three months or four months before the election. Look, I don’t even think if you were talking to the president of Sinn Féin that she’d say, we’re going to romp home, we’re going to win the most votes and have equal number of seats as the main, as Fianna Fáil and be the joint largest party. So I don’t think people can predict accurately what’s going to happen.

But listen, politics is extremely important in times like this. All we have really is the government to defend our interests. And when you look at the difficulties that this government has got into, and it has been a bumpy ride.

SS: But the elephant in the room Jim, is that you’re not in that government, people expected you to be in that government. You were one of the most senior people on the Fianna Fáil frontbench. Do you think Mícheál Martin should hand over the office of Taoiseach to the Fine Gael leader, Leo Varadkar, in December next year?

JO’C: Well, we now have two elephants in this very small room, myself and Phil Hogan. There won’t be much space for you if we put another one in here. In terms of the question about Mícheál Martin, he’s elected as Taoiseach, I think he’s doing a good job, when you look at the substance of what’s been done, the July stimulus package, getting children back to school, we’ve an arrangement in place….

SS:  All of that, which he will hand over power next December which he will agree to do.

JO’C: Well he’s not agreed to do it next December, he’s agreed to do it in 2021.

SS: No in December 2022.

JO’C: December 2022, I beg your pardon.

So that’s the agreement in the arrangement that’s been entered into. I think if we enter into an agreement, we should stick to it. But obviously in politics, events can happen to destabilise governments, everyone recognizes that. But there’s a deal in place, the country needs a government for the next four and a half years. I think we should try to see the full term of this government out.

SS: Well before Fianna Fáil did that, handed over the office to Fine Gael, should there be an election for a leader within Fianna Fáil?

JO’C: Listen, there’s no vacancy for the leadership of Fianna Fáil at present, and I think Mícheál Martin is correct when he says that he intends to lead Fianna Fáil into the next general election. As we know from experience, if you start saying as a politician or as a leader that, ‘oh I don’t intend to lead into the next election’ or ‘I’m only going to serve up to such and such a time’, power drains away from. So I think he’s absolutely correct in terms of what he has said.

SS: Well, tell me now, everybody I knew in politics looked around and were quite astonished when you weren’t appointed to the government. Tell me, were you expecting to be appointed?

JO’C: No, I wasn’t expecting to be appointed because I suppose I could see after the election that a negotiating team had been put together, I wasn’t on it. In fairness to the Taoiseach, he only had six places for Fianna Fáil at Cabinet. Geography, as you know, plays a part in these decisions as well.

SS: And body language is very important too Jim, and what happened somewhere along the way, as I think you said, that the Confidence and Supply agreement with Fine Gael may not be such a good idea to continue with. That was a fundamental thing to say to the leader, is it not?

JO’C: Sorry I just think we need to be clear in terms of, he has a limited choice, he only has six places okay? So I think it’s not some great miscarriage of justice that I was left out of Cabinet.

Fianna Fáil TD Jim O’Callaghan says he is not opposed to going into govenrment with Sinn Féin. Photo: Bryan Meade.

SS: There’s no doubt with that, but the fundamental thing since the last general election is the fact that there was this deal between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, and this is why Mícheál Martin is Taoiseach at the minute, because of this deal. And you said that this is maybe not such a good idea.

JO’C: That was my view.

SS: It’s a very, very fundamental thing.

JO’C: Can I just say, I think, politics is always analysed with the benefit of hindsight. And the analysis now is that the Confidence and Supply agreement, no one should ever enter into one again because it was disastrous for Fianna Fáil. But let’s roll back a year, so say this time last year, the public perception and the political expertise perception was that this is working well for Fianna Fáil.

SS: And did you think it was working well for Fianna Fáil?

JO’C: It seemed to be going the right way. We were going up in the polls, We just had the local election results in June, or May in 2019. We had done very well, we were the largest party. Mícheál Martin had made a number of very good calls and the assumption was, he’s right, keep it going for as long as possible.

My concern is that the longer it went, the more difficult it became for Fianna Fáil to distinguish ourselves from Fine Gael.

SS: When did that strike you, and when did you make this known to Mícheál Martin?

JO’C: I’m not saying like, it was reported in the newspapers, I’m not going to discuss discussions I have with the leader.

SS: I’m not asking about the discussion, but when did it become apparent to you, and you made it apparent to the Taoiseach, or the now-Taoiseach?

JO’C: Well, there was no moment when I go to Mícheál Martin and say this isn’t working for us. But he was aware that I didn’t think it was a good idea for this to be extended. Now, at the time that that became public knowledge and that was in September 2018, there was an Irish Times report to that effect.

SS: And did he disagree with you?

JO’C: I’m not going to direct discussions, but I’m just telling you, I wasn’t certain about it Sam. I don’t have absolute certainty. And it looked to me, in September 2018 I’m reported as saying, didn’t think this was a good idea.

SS: Didn’t rise in conversation or?

JO’C: But for the year after that, it looked like I was wrong, and I probably was. If we had an election in September 2019, I would have been wrong and you would have said, sure listen, Mícheál Martin was perfectly right. And it’s just the circumstances of politics.

And it turned against us in January of this year. And in February, it came home to roost. And that’s why, the reason we didn’t do well is because the public perceived us as being too close to Fine Gael in terms of the fundamental policies on health and housing.

SS: And of course, one of the things with big irony is that it was in your house that the deal was discussed, isn’t that right, in 2016?

JO’C: The confidence and supply was a good idea. We arranged that when we agreed we would do it for three budgets. There was no other government available back in 2016. And we got credit at the time from saying we wouldn’t go into government with Fine Gael, we said we wouldn’t go into government with Sinn Féin. And we put together the confidence and supply and we got credit in the public eye.

“I don’t actually think it’s in the country’s benefit, for parties that are going to be significant players after an election to start ruling out people in advance.”

Jim O’Callaghan

With the benefit of hindsight, and I have the benefit of hindsight now, so it’s easy to say this, I think Mícheál would agree with this, that we probably shouldn’t have extended it.

SS: Did Fine Gael get all the credit and you got all the blame?

JO’C: Let’s not forget, Fine Gael did very badly in the February election as well. And what happened was that the public were very dissatisfied with the Fine Gael government’s performance, on housing in particular and health. And we always thought, and it had been correct up to that time, that there was a correlation between Fine Gael going down and us going up in the polls, because that’s generally what happened.

But what happened in January of this year was for the first time, Fine Gael was down in the polls, we went down in the polls and Sinn Féin went up in the polls. So it’s an interesting political assessment as to what happened. But my view, and I could be completely wrong, but my own assessment of what went wrong for Fianna Fáil in the election was that we were perceived in the public eye as being too close to Fine Gael  in terms of their policies on health and housing.

SF: Do you still believe that Sinn Fein has to be held out of government if possible?

JO’C: No, I don’t hold that view. It’s easy for me to be critical, but I do think, and I did say this in advance, that, by ruling out Fine Gael before the 2020 election and by ruling out Sinn Féin, we boxed ourselves into a very difficult corner. It became apparent after the election that if we didn’t break those commitments, there wouldn’t be a government. So we did break the commitment and we went in with Fine Gael. 

In terms of Sinn Féin, the people of Ireland will decide who is in government and who not in government.

SS: Would you share a government with Sinn Féin? 

JO’C: Well, I would be open to doing it yeah. If they are elected. I said the last time I wouldn’t because we gave such an absolute commitment. Before the last election, I was knocking on doors, talking to people and, not all of them, but some of them said, ‘Listen, I will vote for you but I don’t want you to go in with Sinn Féin’. We’ve given the commitment as a party. So it was a big thing. It would have been a huge thing for us to say adamantly that we’re not going in with Sinn Féin and to change our mind.

“I think it’s important that people from other spheres who are out in what may be termed as the real world get involved in politics. Very few of them do it now.”

Jim O’Callaghan

SS: Well, that is still Mícheál Martin’s position. He is vehemently against any deals with Sinn Féin. You seem to be leaving the door open.

JO’C: I think prior to the next election, we should not be ruling out going into government with anyone. That’s just my own view. And I have to say there’s a huge difference between Fianna Fáil policy and Sinn Féin policy. But I just don’t think it is in our advantage, and I don’t actually think it’s in the country’s benefit, for parties that are going to be significant players after an election to start ruling out people in advance.

SS: If you were to lay out your own ideology or your own personal political side of arguments, would you see yourself as left, right, centre or social democrat?

JO’C: I’d see myself as an Irish Republican first. I’d see myself as centre left. I suppose in terms of the former, as an Irish Republican, I think partition was a terrible thing that was done to this country.

SS: A long time ago.

JO’C: One hundred years. And it’s not going to change unless people try to persuade people in Northern Ireland, from your community that there’s a benefit now, in this century, in working together on this island. I think Fianna Fáil is  in a very strong position to do that as a Republican Party. 

In terms of the general politics, Fianna Fáil has a great opportunity as well at present as a center left party, because the other party, Sinn Féin, has gone very much to the far left. Fine Gael was always sort of looking after the comfortable. There’s a huge opportunity there for Fianna Fáil to represent the vast majority of people who don’t want to see politics in this country polarised in the same way as it’s been polarised in the United States and the United Kingdom. So it’s a great opportunity. We’re a pro-enterprise, pro-employment party, yet we recognise the strong role the state has to play in providing social protection and employment rights for individuals.

SS: Are you sort of saying you’re like the Labour Party?

JO’C: No, and I don’t want to compare and I don’t really want to talk about other political parties. One of the problems, I think with Fianna Fáil is we’ve been talking about other parties too much. Let’s talk about ourselves and what we stand for and define ourselves by what we’re about rather than comparing ourselves to other parties.

“Any person who’s a member of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party would be honoured to lead Fianna Fáil, and I include myself in that category.”

Jim O’Callaghan

SS: You’ve been very gracious in not allowing your own interests to go too far forward at the minute. But there’s no one else at the moment other than yourself who’s being talked about as a leader for Fianna Fáil. That is just a fact. Surely people have been saying it to you? 

JO’C: My assessment of what my political career would be was that… I had another career, I didn’t get involved in politics when I was very young. I think it’s important that people from other spheres who are out in what may be termed as the real world get involved in politics. Very few of them do it now. I would have liked to have been Minister for Justice, done my role as Minister for Justice, and that’s what I envisaged a political career as being. But I will play a role. I’m committed to Fianna Fáil, I’m committed to politics. 

SS: It’s funny that had you not questioned the confidence and supply agreement you would have most certainly become Minister for Justice.

JO’C: I think that’s unfair Mícheál Martin to say that. 

SS: You were one of his key advisors. 

JO’C:  I get on extremely well with the man. 

SS: But you did until that time.

JO’C: I still get on really well with him. There’s no falling out. People assume because I wasn’t in the negotiation team…

SS: And you’re not in government.

“In politics need a thick skin. But I think we need to recognise in this country that we shouldn’t be so condemnatory of people in public life and politics that we’re going to make sure that nobody goes into it.” 

Jim O’Callaghan

JO’C: Yeah. But in fairness to him, he has a limited number of positions to fill and all sorts of factors come into play. But listen, about the leadership of Fianna Fáil, we’ll deal with that in due course. There’s no vacancy at present and we need to get behind Mícheál Martin.

SS: But you would like one day to be leader of Fianna Fáil?

JO’C: It depends when one day is.

SS: Yeah, well, I’m not saying next Thursday, but maybe in the next year or the year after? 

JO’C: I’ve said before, any person who’s a member of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party would be honoured to lead Fianna Fáil, and I include myself in that category. 

SS: Do you think you have a following in the party? 

JO’C: I don’t know. I know people say, ‘Oh, he’s going to go out to do the ‘chicken and chips circuit’. I’m going to devote my energy to ensuring that Fianna Fáil  grows prosperous and that its identity is protected. It’s very difficult for the senior figures in Fianna Fáil who are in government to concentrate on those issues. So, if people asked me to come and speak at events, I will. I think that Fianna Fáil is worth preserving for this country. I think it’s important that we have a strong centre ground/centre left party that is not going to facilitate the polarisation of politics we see elsewhere.

SS: You have been a very successful lawyer. A senior counsel are among the highest paid professionals in the land. I think they get paid more than surgeons by and large and so forth. So you must have had to make a considerable sacrifice to play such a prominent role in politics? I mean, a financial sacrifice for your family.

JO’C: Barristers, whether they be senior counsel or junior counsel, in a way they are the same as people in journalism…

SS: No they’re paid an awful lot more, I know that.

JO’C: There’s some people in journalism that earn hundreds of thousands. The vast majority don’t…

SS: Two or three in this country maybe.

JO’C: Okay, maybe journalism is not a good example,

“It is a very precarious career in Irish politics. I could be out of a job in the morning. You look at what happened to poor Dara Calleary.”

Jim O’Callaghan

SS: Anyway, leading senior counsel is much sought after and in demand.

JO’C: Well, I entered into this with my eyes wide open. I have a very considerate wife. And money isn’t my motivating factor. If it was, I wouldn’t have got involved in politics. I would have stayed at the Bar. But I would prefer to do something which I would regard as very worthwhile with my life rather than something that is merely lucrative. And I believe politics is very worthwhile. And I commend all the people who are members of the Oireachtas because without people putting themselves forward for political office, we’re just going to end up with something like Trump or Brexit. We need people to come forward. 

And listen, I don’t really care that much about what people say about me. And people in politics need a thick skin. But I think we need to recognise in this country that we shouldn’t be so condemnatory of people in public life and politics that we’re going to make sure that nobody goes into it. 

SS: Well, you have another choice, of course. If you chose to follow your political thoughts, you could become an independent TD, work in the courts and go up to the Dáil afterwards.

JO’C: Well, I still practice as a barrister. People are perfectly entitled to criticise me for that. But the reason I do it is because it is a very precarious career in Irish politics. I could be out of a job in the morning. You look at what happened to poor Dara Calleary. You could lose a job in the morning. So, I need to ensure that I have something. 

SS: Tell me, one thing that has been puzzling a lot of my friends, and that is that the Oireachtas press gallery seems to be now used as a pool of politician’s labourers. They’ve been moved from the press gallery into the offices to do the boring jobs for politicians.

JO’C: Yeah, I think that’s potentially a problem. There is a great journalist, Fiach Kelly, who has gone to work, I think, for a government minister. There are other excellent journalists who have done the same, Susan Mitchell, Juno McEnroe. My own assessment of it is I think it’s, maybe I’m wrong, I don’t know what their reasons are for it, but I think journalism is a very tough career for young people starting off now.

For the vast majority of journalists. It’s very hard to earn money. Maybe it’s a sign of what’s happening in the newspaper industry. It’s become a much more competitive industry.

SS: Does government need to find a way to protect the public’s right to information, and that is somehow to help support it?

JO’C: Maybe.I remember Timmy Dooley when he was our communications spokesperson had put forward a policy in that regard to provide support for newspapers. I think it gets difficult, though, for the state to intervene and to provide financial supports for particular newspapers. How do you determine who gets it? There are certain newspapers that are owned by large multinationals. Should they be given financial support?

SS: I think if politicians give money to journalists, they shouldn’t bite the hand that feeds them. 

JO’C: There should be tension between politicians and journalists. Journalists should want to sniff out what politicians are doing. They should be kicking the tyres. They should be looking for stories. And that’s a good tension. People can be civil to each other, but I think we have to be careful that it doesn’t become too pally and that journalists see it as an opportunity to go into politics that way.

I think it’s hard to make definitive decisions about people’s careers. Young people in journalism, they’re entitled to want to get a job that pays them more money. It’s a difficult time out there for young people.

SS: For somebody who’s prominent in public life as yourself, is it unnerving at all to have an older sister who is even more famous than you are?

JO’C: Well, I grew up in a house with four sisters, and all of them are older sisters. 

SS: Of course, I’m speaking there about Miriam. 

JO’C: There are two Miriam O’Callaghans in my life. My mother is also called Miriam O’Callaghan, and she’s 92. And Miriam is my sister as well.

SS: And she’s also a lawyer. 

JO’C: I was very lucky growing up that I had four strong intelligent sisters in the house with me and my mother was also a strong woman as well. Myself and my father, who was a quiet Kerryman, we grew up in the three bedroom semi-detached, myself and himself found refuge where we’d go to Croke Park. He was a Kerryman who loved watching Kerry beat Dublin.

SS: You’re the youngest in the house?

JO’C: And the only boy.

SS: I was just going to say, the only son with four older sisters must be spoiled rotten. Can you iron a shirt? 

JO’C: Of course I can iron a shirt, absolutely. 

SS: Can you cook?

JO’C: Yeah. 

SS: So you’re useful about the house? 

JO’C: I would have thought so, but my wife Julie may have a different view on that.

SS: Also, you were educated by the Jesuits?

JO’C: I was, I got a great education off Jesuits.

SS: And then studied law at Cambridge?

JO’C: I studied law in UCD and then I got to do a Masters in Law in Cambridge, and did an MPhil in criminology. It was there for two years and had a very nice time there. 

“I just do my job for them. I give them legal advice and I represent them in court. And to be frank, once I’m finished doing the case with them, I don’t think about them anymore.”

Jim O’Callaghan

SS: You now live in Dublin 6. That is the belly of the beast, a far flung place from the men who eat their dinner in the middle of the day of Fianna Fáil.

JO’C: Listen, don’t pigeonhole people by where they live or their background. People have complex identities as well. And Fianna Fáil is a party that has changed too. I’m the son of a Kerryman. He was a civil servant. My mother was a schoolteacher. She’s from Laois. I am a product of what I am.

SS: You have a very successful practice as a lawyer. Presumably that’s because you’re good at what you do.

Is there a danger that some of the very wealthy and successful people that you have represented, present a potential conflict of interest on you as an elected representative?

JO’C: Well, I don’t think so. Look, I’ve been a barrister for 25 years. I’ve represented thousands of people, I would have thought, and companies. I’ve represented employees, employers, businesspeople, trade unions, politicians from virtually every political party. I just do my job for them. I give them legal advice and I represent them in court. And to be frank, once I’m finished doing the case with them, I don’t think about them anymore.

SS: Tell me you kept running for office at one time and that didn’t go well. You did fail quite a few times. 

In 2007, you were running and it’s come out that you spent €16,000 on your election in 2007 and some of that money came from Vincent Browne. What was that all about? 

JO’C: This could now be the complete end of my political career. I don’t recall that. 

But I ran in 2007. Part of the problem in politics, I think, is that people take it personally. I’ve seen very good people go into politics and they run and they lose. And they think, ‘People don’t like me’. They take it personally. It’s not personal. It’s just a science. And the worst part is people who run and they get elected and they think it’s personal.

SS: But that’s like saying there’s somebody who asked somebody to dance or something and who has refused.

JO’C: Perseverance is an important document. I ran in about two or three elections where I got elected.

SS: Rejection. 

JO’C: I’m sure there were people in the area, I’m sure my wife wasn’t really one of them, who said ‘What is that poor eejit doing? He’s running for a third time. Does he not get the message that he’s not going to get elected?’

But if you look at the records of any people who have been successful in politics, you will see that perseverance is probably the most important characteristic.

SS: I have no doubt about that. But getting money from Vincent Browne is still lurking in the background, probably. 

JO’C: I’ll have to issue a public apology for that in due course.

SS: I also understand from my sources, as journalists are always saying, that when you were elected in 2016 to the Dáil, that your mother said it was the greatest day of her life and that out of everything that happened in the house, that was a very big deal.

JO’C: I don’t know about that. She’s extremely proud of all of her children. 

SS: Oh, I’m sure she is. But she only has one son.

JO’C: Listen, it’s a great honour for a family to have a member of the family elected to Dáil Éireann. It’s a fantastic honour, even more, for a family member to be made a minister. And that’s why I think of people like Dara Calleary’s family and indeed Jerry Buttimer’s family, people like that. It’s tough on them when you’re out there in the centre of a spotlight and people are presenting as though you’re a villain and none of these people are villains.

SS: You were capped for the Irish rugby under 21 team. You played for London Irish Wanderers and Leinster. Could you’ve been a professional rugby player? 

JO’C: Well, professionalism came in 1995, and I was at an age when I was working at the Bar. I would have loved to have been 18 or 19 at a time when rugby was professional. I enjoyed it immensely as a sport. I grew up to a large extent with a gaelic football background. But because I was quite athletic, I was a good footballer and I, as the Australians would say, a large unit, because of that, I enjoyed rugby. I was good at it.  What it teaches me, actually, is that I should have taken it more seriously. When I look back at it now, rugby was not taken seriously then. On a Friday night we would be out and about with a match on Saturday, sure we’d be out having pints and enjoying ourselves. 

I suppose in a way it helps me in politics. If you’re going to be serious about something, be serious about it and concentrate on it. I’ve regrets about rugby. I should have taken it more seriously, but I got huge enjoyment out of it. I met great friends. 

SS: How about gaelic football?

JO’C: I was a very good gaelic footballer in national school. Then I went and played rugby and rugby slows you down. I was a second row and the number eight in rugby. I got heavier and it slows you down. But I was a good gaelic footballer. It’s a fantastic game, gaelic football.

SS: Is there a single rugby player that is your hero?

JO’C: My hero? I don’t have heroes in life. I think Peter O’Mahony  is probably the best rugby player I’ve seen. 

SS: Is there a politician that you can look back on somewhere and say, ‘I admire him or her?’

JO’C: I admire that, it’s a controversial choice, but I admire Lyndon Baines Johnson. I think he was a very effective politician.

SS: He certainly was not from the Dingle Peninsula. 

JO’C: But no politician, with the exception of Abraham Lincoln, did more for civil rights and the rights of blacks in America, not just as president.

SS: Is there an Irish politician?

JO’C: Well, I didn’t grow up in a political environment at all, but the first time I ever went into Leinster House was when I was studying law in UCD and my lecturer in Roman law was John Kelly. Kelly decided one day he was going to have the class in Leinster House. And he brought us. I’d never been in the Dáil before. He was a fantastic person, John Kelly.

SS: Very funny, too.

JO’C: Hilarious. And then he’d take us into the bar. And he was very entertaining. He liked a whiskey. There was a class of about eight people in the Roman law class, but he’d let us stay there.

He had a big influence on me and I think the fact that he combined a career in academia with public life and made a great contribution to public life, that influenced me well.

SS: It’s hard to top that anyway.

Anyway, we’ve run out of time, Jim so thank you all for listening and thank you very much. 

JO’C: Thanks very much.

Fianna Fáil TD Jim O’Callaghan says he does not recall receiving a sum of money from journalist Vincent Browne when running for election in 2007. Photo: Bryan Meade.

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