In his 2009 book What Sport Teaches Us About Life, the former England cricketer Ed Smith endeavoured to draw out some of sport’s intellectual lessons and practical uses. Smith began each chapter by posing an intriguing question – is the free-market ruining sport? When is cheating really cheating? What do people see when they watch sport? The central tenet, however, of Smith’s book is the desire for sport to be taken seriously.

In recent times, Bernard Brogan has been asking a similar question – What sport teaches you about business. A mainstay of Dublin’s all-conquering Gaelic football team, Brogan has seven All Ireland medals, four All Star awards and is a former footballer of the year.

But towards the end of his inter county playing career, Brogan had begun transitioning into the world of business. A qualified chartered accountant (he trained with Farrell Grant Sparks, now known as Duff & Phelps), he co-founded the sports and marketing agency Legacy Communications in 2012 with his brother Paul. It has since expanded into the UK and has a roster of clients ranging from AIG to Dunnes Stores.

He also co-founded PepTalk, an employee wellbeing tool that is currently in the middle of a fundraising round. Brogan tells me that his ambition is to scale the business globally, and to enter the lucrative US market. Despite the economic lockdowns, both of his businesses are currently hiring.

As he embarked on his own business journey, Brogan says that many of the lessons he learned from elite sport are transferrable to the world of business. For his interview with The Currency, he identified five key takeaways.

• A crisis is an opportunity to innovate
• Culture lives and dies in middle management
• The Performance Trinity
• Vulnerability builds trust
• Replacing the changing room/watercooler moments

During the course of our interview, we discussed each of the five. But we began with his transition into business and his own entrepreneurial journey.

Ian Kehoe (IK): Was the ambition for you always to get into business, to get into that sort of entrepreneurial space, yourself?

Bernard Brogan (BB): I’m not sure, to be honest. I’m a qualified chartered accountant, I served my time at Farrell Grant Sparks while I was young and trying to play for Dublin. Actually, Paul Griffin, who was a corner back for Dublin, his dad, Eamon, brought me on for an apprenticeship in the accountancy world and that gave me a great sense of how businesses were run – tax, setting up a balance sheet. It really gave me a great understanding of the fundamentals of business.

From working with businesses and seeing how they operate, I got an understanding of it. Fundamentally, I was working on a lot of brands, as I was lucky enough playing for Dublin. I was working as an ambassador with Adidas and working with AIG. I was working with a lot of different organisations and I suppose I saw a gap in the market around the marketing, the PR, the communications. There was a bigger need. That’s where Legacy was borne from. It was borne out of activating sponsorships, looking at ambassadors and influencers and seeing how we can get the most out of them for both the brands and then for the sporting body as well.

James (Brogan) and I started that business. He was a lawyer, so not a traditional marketeer, but he played for Dublin as well. We understood that the GAA has such a strong network in Ireland and literally any business across Ireland and abroad there’s been someone with the door open to facilitate a conversation. You have to have the goods to sell and be able to do the service.

The GAA is such an amazing network for me as a businessperson, to really give myself a head start. It’s about looking at how we support future entrepreneurs, future businesspeople. How do we help people with their business acumen? Because in the early days, all I thought about was sport. All I cared about was GAA. I stayed in college as long as I could to play GAA, as any young, aspiring Dublin player or county player would do. I felt there was too much focus on it.

When I retired, the biggest compliment I got was actually from Paul Flynn. He said I made him have a look at himself out of the sport and pitch to look at his career. He was a plumber originally and he went to a recruitment agency and then became CEO of the GPA (Gaelic Players Association). It’s the biggest compliment I’ve had and aside from scoring goals and points, for him to say that I helped him look at himself from a holistic point of view and push himself outside of the sporting field, that meant a lot to me.

IK: What’s interesting about Legacy is it’s not traditional PR. It’s not just press releases trying to pitch things, but kind of acting as a bridge between brands and players.

BB: Yeah, and that’s very much how we started. Like anything, we’ve evolved a lot this year, more than ever. And the world is becoming a lot more digital. There’s only a couple of professional sports in Ireland, sport is massive in Ireland, but it is a small country with a small number of sports from a commercial point of view. So, we’ve evolved into consumer PR and very much into the digital PR space because the world is becoming more digitalised. Last year, 65,000 companies in Ireland went online. We saw that and we have five jobs out now at the moment with Legacy looking to go after that area and increase our presence into that space.

Where we want to go now is to push it deeper and drive leads, drive people to their website, look at the SEO (search engine optimisation). How do you get people up on the Google rankings? Every decision is made by consumers now. They’re able to do the research, they Google, they look at online, they measure it against it. We’re trying to round that circle out for our clients. So, it’s an exciting kind of evolution Legacy is on at the moment.

IK: And then the other strand to your portfolio is PepTalk. An amazing roster of clients such as McDonald’s, PayPal, Coca Cola. What does that involve?

BB: Obviously I’ve been involved with sport for a long time and looking at culture and high-performance teams and a lot of organisations are looking at how do we instill that in our team. How do we drive those synergies, our learnings in sport into the business?

A high-performance team in a sport or a business is the exact same behaviour, same mentality, same purpose, drive. All of the things are very relatable. There is myself and James and we brought in Michelle Fogarty. She has 20 years or so in HR. She brought a real psychological strength to the team.

The three of us went about looking at how we help organisations drive their culture at scale and change behaviour. The word PepTalk is not about just one talk or someone coming in. We could get whoever the best motivational people are in to do a talk with an organisation. That happens time and time again. But does that change the dial? We all go back to our office and our desks. We might take a nugget or two. But fundamentally, to make any sort of change you need to drive habits over time. And we focus on two things in PepTalk. Team dynamics, that connection, that drive. And also the really key part is managers, people leaders. Because when you talk about culture, and I’m a big fan of the debate around it, but middle managers, people in organisations that have teams below them day after day are the fundamentals and nuts and bolts of their companies.

The CEO and the senior team can have the words on the wall, and they can have all the vision and mission statements they want. But it is the people who interact daily with the teams, with the customers, with the public, with the key stakeholders, they are the culture of an organisation. And those two areas, teams and managers are the drivers of a culture.

Wellbeing is a fundamental of high performance. For us, wellbeing is a component of an individual’s high performance. If they are well, if they are satisfied, if they have purpose and they have all of these things they will be a high performer. And it’s not just about having content and just doing classes. They are all little tactical bits of it.

Now we’re raising money. We’re going global. We’re international with PayPal and a couple of other clients. I’m really trying to grasp the opportunity and the need out there as organisations are struggling to drive some of these behaviours through remote working and the world of work is going to be different. Whenever we come out of this pandemic, it will definitely be different than it was before.

IK: You’re out there, you’re raising external capital, I suppose the international expansion is twofold. Taking the existing roster, a lot of your clients are multinationals and exporting abroad and then seeking new international clients as well.

BB: Absolutely. Expanding in Ireland is obviously very broad and wide ranging with the multinationals that have their HQ here or have offices here. And that is definitely a growth strategy for us, to work in Ireland and do proof of concepts for a wider European and global rollout. And then also looking at key markets across Europe and in time the US about expanding, putting sales teams and focus on these areas in the next while.

A crisis is an opportunity to innovate

IK: So, listen, I’ve talked to loads of businesspeople over the years, and one of the things that invariably comes up is that they’re always really interested in the learnings from elite athletes.

Let’s come up with some transferable skills from elite sport to business. You’ve picked out five. I think the first one that you picked up out is really interesting within the context of where we are now. And it’s this idea that a crisis is an opportunity to innovate. And I think we’ve really seen that over the past 11, 12 months.

BB: For me, on a practical level for my businesses, I look back to when I got injured, I had setbacks in my life on a high performance sports pitch. I looked at that, I said, how do I come back as a better individual. I’m not training every day with the guys. When you’re training on a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday with the team, everyone’s increasingly getting better at a kind of combined rate. And when you have a chance to do something different, you’ve a chance to gather ground or to get ahead of people.

So, when I was obviously out for a long time with that, and I used that as a time to go to the gym, to go after my visualisations to go after a different area and to really come back. I actually don’t think I would have played or got to the levels I did if I hadn’t got a really bad injury at 19.

When I talk to young kids, boys and girls that have bad injuries at 14, 15, 16 years of age, I always say to them use this as a chance to go for something else be it the gym, visualisation. And there’s always opportunities out there. That’s what we did in business this year with Legacy. When we look back, half our business was sports related and we had a lot of stuff in hospitality as well. And so. some of that stuff was really hurt. This crisis gave us an opportunity. I said this is what culture is about, we’re cashing in our culture now. The great Mickey Whelan said to us, we’re putting money in the bank. And we need to remind ourselves that when we’d be training in the morning and running in ditches and swimming in the sea he would say “fellas, money in the bank.” I can still hear it ringing in my ears.

Basically, what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to cash that in before a big game. You’re cashing in those chips that you have. And that’s what I said to the team. I said, this is why we went to Marbella last year together, this is why we do all these nice things together. When there’s a challenge, we put the shoulder to the wheel, and we set up an innovation team and see how we’re going to innovate and just keep people in jobs. Making sure that we come out of things better and we’ve come in to it.

We’re in the process of purchasing a business in Co Cork which is digital marketing SEO, which will add to the team. And so, it’s an amazing opportunity for us to get a rounder service for our client that will help you innovate.

“Mickey Whelan said to me that I was putting money in the bank that I was going to cash in down the road.”

And what happens is we’re on the hamster wheel all the time. In the last eight years as an entrepreneur, you just got stuck on the hamster wheel and you have to have someone to knock your shoulder and say right get back up. The helicopter view is what we call it. Let’s do a session, let’s look down where we’re going and what we’re doing. This year gives all organisations a good chance to do that. Look at what do and how to do it differently and how do you come out better. I think a lot of people have really gone after that this year.

IK: Just two points on that I just want to touch upon. Did you set yourself actual targets or did you just go mad and work and work and work? And number two, you mentioned that you wouldn’t have become the player you became if this hadn’t happened. Was as much of that mental as physical then that sort of adversity piece?

BB: Yes. To answer your first question. Absolutely. Goal setting is a thing I do naturally, but definitely was more focused around that time. And having good people around you. I remember Barry Cahill, who was best pals with my brother Alan, he had a piece of paper where he tracked his milestones and he actually got it off Trevor Giles who played with me and is one of the greatest forwards ever.

So I had a piece of paper with the milestones of Trevor Giles and Barry Cahill and I put my name beside it. And it was after four weeks at two crutches go down to one crutch with no limp. Be able to lift, able to walk, able to hop. And I had, we had, all these small goals you have to get after week on week. And that really helped me. And what I’d say to someone that’s going through something at the moment or at any stage is set goals, small goals, small rocks, I call them. It’s about small things that are very achievable in a short period of time. And you get that kind of endorphin that you’ve got through that and you feel good. Now, up and on to the next one and say I’ll be able to do this in a week’s time or a day’s time. That gives you the positive reinforcement that you can get through it. If you’re looking at things that are a month down the line or six months down the line, it’s very hard to keep focus. Make it bitesize. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. And having good people around me. I had a lot of teams that were going to support me around me. So, I’m concerned speaking to people who might not even have the support structure. So I just try and give them some tips to try and help them in that. 

And to answer your second question. Definitely. When we talk about some of the transferable skills in business or sport, it’s hard work and graft. There’s no substitute or silver bullet or anything for people who just work hard and just get after it. I felt I had done that work on my own. Done the miles in the gym, on the bikes. I actually did a lot of boxing on the recovery for the cruciate and the bouncing was really good for stability down in Arbour Hill boxing club, down on Manor Street and got me head punched off me by a lot of boxers. Mickey Whelan said to me that I was putting money in the bank that I was going to cash in down the road.

Culture lives and dies in middle management

IK: So, the second point that we touched upon briefly, but let’s dig into a little bit more, is this idea that culture lives and dies in middle management. I think it was an interesting point that you made there when you were talking about it, that it’s grand that you’re the CEO, you’re up in your office, you go, ‘here’s how we do it.’ You’re engaging with the board, you’re managing up, and then you’re managing maybe a team of five or six of your executive team.

But below that are the people who the public interact with. And they’re the physical faces and voices of the company. And their actions impact upon the company, perhaps as much as the CEO.

BB: Yeah, and in most cases, especially large organisations, I think middle management is probably the most underserved. PepTalk is a technology company and we’re looking at other technologies and all the platforms and the HR stack and all of the gadgets you have out there you can have in a technology world. Middle managers are the most underserviced area for lots of reasons but fundamentally they’re a very difficult cohort to engage. 

As you say about managing up and managing down, middle managers have a team of between seven to 10 in big organisations, they’re managing up into multiple stakeholders, they’ve got their own day to day work and they’ve got to bring and educate and train and bring through their team. It’s a very difficult and challenging area in the business. We believe we need to do a couple of things with the middle managers. We need to first and foremost make them understand why wellbeing and culture and relationships and conversations are important for their teams, especially in the current environment but always important.

And then secondly is, they don’t always have to get involved with every initiative, but to understand they are the pinnacle, the person that their team looks up to, they give the lead, the bonuses and expenses, they are the important role in that business. They have to understand that if they don’t facilitate something or if their mood or reception is, take a person’s wellbeing or a person’s mindset or work-life balance, if they don’t take them seriously, that creates gaps between the team.

IK: And on a sporting piece, you’re talking about, forgive me if I’m wrong, but you’re talking about, not the star players, not the guy who’s winning gold stars every year, you’re talking about the guys who do an awful lot of the hard work in training, the subs, the people who come on, the panel players.

BB: Yeah and that’s fundamentally where, you talk about high performance and then sustaining high performance which is what Dublin has done and continue to do. Everyone in that organisation and that team, the coaches, Jim Gavin and now Dessie. They are facilitators and Jim would have always said, I’m just here to put some plans around the place, but once they cross the white line, the great quote he used to say is, “all plans go out the window on first contact with the enemy”. That’s his army background. He’s just setting up a plan and a structure, giving clarity a role. But when you go out there and you need leaders all over the park and yes you’ll have your go-to men, the Cluxtons, the Con O’Callaghans, the Brian Fentons, the Ciarán Kilkennys. But if you don’t have everyone roaming in with their shoulder to the wheel and leading at different times during that game or during that season, you won’t have that high performance, you’re dead right.

It’s not about the star men continuing to be stars and doing more, it’s about how do you get that middle cohort to really buy into something and in an organisation, the middle managers are that area, if they buy into it, if they come together and put their shoulders to the wheel after any initiative, not just wellbeing or culture, any initiative that happens, they are the living and breathing of it being a success in an organisation.

The Performance Trinity

IK: The third point- it’s got a great title, the Performance Trinity. Tell me about that.

BB: Yeah, it’s actually coined by Jim Gavin and I just really like it. Basically, he would say to us, what are the three most important things to you? Your performance trinity. So, for me, it was sports, it was my family, and it was my work as an entrepreneur. For some people it’s study, for some people it’s social or whatever. Say whenever I’m talking to a mixed group of people I say, just in your head, think what are the three most important things, because usually it’s family or a relationship or something like that, and then work is such a big part of our lives and then something else.

“They don’t drop a suitcase of the challenges at home, the late night with a new baby or financial worries or stress in a relationship.”

And what Jim was trying to do, he looked at performance extremely hard because he wanted us to be on point and focus when it came to training or on the Sunday in Croke Park. That’s what his drive was but how he wanted people to get there, he knew that was through supporting them in their relationships. So there was never a Christmas or an Easter that went by without a note from Jim to the families, to loved ones, to the wives, gifts would go across. If there was any social event, everyone was invited, there was never just the lads. He was basically looking at your relationships at home, be it if you were living with your mother and father as a young lad at home, or be it a wife and children. How could he support that area of your life? So when he was asking for an extra training session or we were staying late, the home understood that there was a decent kind of feeling around Jim.

So he was driving positive affirmations with that group. And the second thing was, for me it was work but a lot of guys studied. So if you had exams on a Wednesday or Thursday, on the previous Friday, he would say ‘guys I’ll see you this time next weekend, spend the next few evenings studying away’. Or if I was traveling with work over to the UK, take the evening off, you flagged it on a flight today or you’re driving home from Cork, take the night off, go to see the wife or go to a little gym session or go for a swim.

And the reason for that is, some of it is injury prevention. But fundamentally it’s that if you feel that, yeah I’m supported when I’m under a bit of pressure, when you get out there, you are just going to go through a wall. That was what he was trying to do. And he looked at that performance trinity, with the apex of it being Championship Sunday and how could he support us in all the other things. And that’s the format we take with PepTalk – how can we support the exterior things. Because we don’t try and teach you to be a better journalist, we don’t try to teach you to be a better accountant. Whatever your job is, we just want to try and bring you on that journey about the personal side of things, the things around you. How does an organisation that we work with help you as an individual to be the best you can be when you show up.

IK: Yeah. There has been movement towards that. Just this idea that work isn’t just nine to five, but that to get the best out of people, you need to understand them as a holistic human I suppose.

BB: Yeah and we used to say in the early days of PepTalk, when you’re going to meet somebody in an office, your people don’t leave their baggage at the door when they come in the door. They don’t drop a suitcase of the challenges at home, the late night with a new baby or financial worries or stress in a relationship. They don’t leave them at the door. And yes, there’s times when people are in good moods, times when people aren’t. So how do you look at the whole person and give them the support or give them the opportunity or the tools to be the best they can be. There’s a lot of individual leaders and organisations that believe in that and get after it but I think more so now in the last year, people just need to. And we’re talking to a lot of senior business leaders and boardrooms

And they’re like “okay this is coming to me” and a lot of them will believe in it, but is it across the organisation, that mentality? For some it wasn’t but now it’s coming up that this is an area that needs to be looked at. An area like diversity inclusion, like CSR (corporate social responsibilities) is in organisations.

The big organisations now, this ESG piece which is Environmental, Social, and Corporate Governance, which has to be reported on in your financial reports and annual reports at the end of the year for big organisations and environmentalism, it’s not easy, but you can get after carbon, you can get after sustainability. It’s nice. And people are well adjusted with how to get after it.

The social piece isn’t an easy piece. We’re trying to work with some large organisations, how do we support them with that S piece, with measuring employee engagement and happiness, understanding when to make an intervention and that’s stuff they can actually report on. So that’s the area we’re trying to focus on.

Vulnerability builds trust

IK:. Point four, vulnerability breeds trust. I think when you read it, it seems obvious like, I’ve worked with people over the years and at times where they’re going through something difficult, you get a real sense of who they are and the one piece that I always give is, I worked in the Sunday Business Post when it went into Examinership, and it was a great lesson in people.

So some people put their heads down and disappeared for a period and others just really went for it and said, we’re going to get through this. And I think as a manager, it’s trying to work with both of those types of people.

BB: Not everyone is the same, so understanding the personality of your people is important. Not every style of management, style of leadership will work with everyone. When you say vulnerability builds trust, but what I believe fundamentally if you want a high-performance team, a manager will want their team to trust them. That they have their interests at heart, that they’re going to come on this journey and put their shoulders to the wheel.

For the employees, they want to have the same relationship with their manager. They want to feel purpose, they want to feel valued. These are all basic human emotions and needs. And a trick or a tip for that is, for a manager is to show vulnerability. You don’t always have the answers.

Sometimes, I’m the manager so I have to show strength or poise or show that nothing fazes me. That style of hierarchical leadership and management I believe is outdated. I believe that you show vulnerability, you say you don’t have all the answers, you say we’ll get the answers together and figure things out.

AIB is one of our biggest clients and I remember over the summer we had a series of manager videos through PepTalk about challenges they had, tips they had around Covid and working from home. It was the most engaged content we had because managers were showing vulnerability. They were showing they didn’t have the answers, they were talking about times where the team came together, they brainstormed, and that’s how you drive trust in a team. When you feel as a leader that you can open up.

Say guys I don’t have all the answers, or I actually struggled last week, two kids at home, I’m trying to get work done, working in the evenings and I’m just burnt out and I just want to tell you all that.

If you say that to a team I guarantee they’ll feel more open to you, they’ll feel as if you’re more human, they’ll feel like they can have a conversation and have the same back with you which is fundamentally what you want. Because when a team feel that they can say something to their manager about a challenge or a problem they’re having, then you’re providing solutions, people aren’t hiding things or putting things under the blanket.

IK: I spoke to Ronan Dunne who is the CEO of Verizon over in the US. He’s an Irish guy but he was running a $90 billion business over there. He made a point, the biggest transition he had from being the CFO to being the CEO of a major business was, he thought he needed all the solutions because he was in the big chair. And then he said he had a kind of epiphany. That when people come to the CEO with a problem, it’s because the solution is not immediately obvious and no one can see it. And once you realise that, that’s actually better for the wider company eco ecosystem.

BB: Big time and I’ve reached out to him a couple of times. He’s an unbelievable character and where he’s got to in that organisation is amazing. And one that I look up to I suppose, people like that from a business point of view and always try to learn from that. And you’re dead right. And Paul Flynn, small organisations say the same, I asked him what’s his day to day challenges as CEO. He said I don’t have all the answers. When people come in to me, he says I want them to have thought about a potential conversation starter or a potential, how do we get out of this? Because I don’t have all the answers, yes I have to make the decision. You say there, CEOs have to make a decision on it, but they don’t have all the answers. So he’s encouraging his team to come up with some solutions and I love that, don’t come with just problems, come with solutions to me.

And that just stuck with me. And I’m sure Ronan is the same, he’s trying to empower his team to come with solutions, and yes he’ll give his ideas and he’ll help them decide the right thing to do, but nobody has all the answers and that’s the vulnerability piece and when you have that your people are coming and they’re innovating, they’re able to bring you ideas and all ships rise then.

Replacing the changing room/watercooler moments

IK: Listen, the final point briefly, I think it’s an issue facing every company, my own included, is this idea of replacing watercooler moments or changing room moments in this time of crisis, because interaction and just chatting to people is normally the stimulus for so many good ideas and new concepts, new ways of doing things. And people are now looking into how can we replicate that on Zoom or how do we replicate it in a world of remote workings, so I’m really interested in your views on this one.

BB: Yeah, a couple of things clients have shone out to me as real challenging things during Covid. One is innovation, it’s about think tanks, their ideas coming to solve big problems. Most ideas as you said there are the five minutes before and after a meeting is where the nugget is really found or it’s tweaked, someone gives up a section of something, I didn’t want to say it in front of the room but what about this? I like that.

That’s where a lot of innovation lies and it’s hard to replicate on Zoom, so that’s the number one challenge I think. The second one which has raised it’s head is, the juniors in an organisation, people who are learning their trade in whatever industry they’re in are really challenged in this environment, because there’s no water cooler.

When I became an accountant I asked my manager beside me and my pals, I would say 100 questions a day about immaterial things, big things. And you just have that environment where you can just knock a question off as I’m sure you did through your career. And that’s not there, juniors and people who are learning their trade, they’ve been given a task to do, a problem to solve. And it’s not apparent, the solution isn’t there and they don’t have that outlet to ask lots of questions.

And that has been a real challenge and I’m sure lots of organisations are having that, and how you solve that is a challenge. We talked about doing voice notes, setting up a peer group of juniors where they can bounce ideas off each other, no problem is too small.

“There’s no simple solution for this watercooler moment”

Something we’re doing ourselves at the moment is sharing a day in the life of. What you’re trying to do is create conversation and that’s the thing that’s gone and in conversation is that relationship. We’re all looking for purpose and energy from our workplace because it’s a long part of our day and if you’re just sitting in a chair doing work you eventually get bored, you run out of steam and productivity will go down.

So we need to drive energy into the organisation and that’s done through human interactions. And one way PepTalk solves it is through team challenges. Break people up into teams, a bit of competition and friendly banter. Try and drive energy to the organisation remotely. We do it through things like picture sharing, showing your challenges at home, showing how you exercise and how you get after things. Just very simple ways to create that connection and water cooler moment, liking and sharing and just getting after it.

Even in some of our WhatsApp groups, a club is doing it, our GAA club is doing it, they’re trying to find connection because we’re training, we’re not playing. And it’s just a day in the life of. How is your day going and you understand what that person is going through. And you think I can relate to that guy now, I didn’t know he has kids or a cat. It’s just creating those opportunities to maybe reach out.

But it is a real challenge, I mean, there’s no simple solution for this watercooler moment and it will continue to be there because listening to researchers and some of the papers this morning even, is that the world of work, it probably won’t be five days out of the office but it won’t be five days in the office either. So it’s about how do you keep that environment for people who don’t see each other. Teams will see each other when they come in together and they do innovation but in a big organisation there won’t be that cross pollination of energy.

So you have to find other ways so for us, technology and being accessible and being in the hand and being in an app like PepTalk is a good start. And we’re evolving and coming up with ways with our clients, we’re co-creating, we’re saying what are the challenges, what is your feedback, how do we get better and that’s, I suppose, that’s how we’re learning and how we’re solving for our big clients.

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