Enough and more has been written about Golfgate, though few would have considered the consequent ramifications for the gambling industry in this country.

The wild west will belatedly have a sheriff. Perhaps as soon as this autumn, a gambling regulator will be appointed for the first time, and an industry that turns over billions of euros will be anxiously waiting.

New laws to regulate gambling were proposed by the Fine Gael-Labour government with the Gambling Control Bill 2013. This legislation never materialised but even in the time that has since passed, gambling has evolved markedly.

Back to that society dinner in Clifden, which resulted in the resignation of Dara Calleary as Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Charlie McConalogue was catapulted in as a replacement, ending his ephemeral tenure as Minister of State for Law Reform.

The Donegal TD’s departure opened up another opportunity. James Browne, first elected as a Fianna Fáil TD in 2016, has a background in law. Last year, he was promoted to a ministry that would entail driving what he calls one of the biggest pieces of legislation in the past decade.

It is estimated that around €10 billion is gambled every year by Irish gamblers. In recent days, Flutter Entertainment, owner of Paddy Power, Betfair and Sky Bet franchises, announced it would ban credit card betting in Ireland from the beginning of April. A tide is turning.

But what is Browne’s plan? Can he implement it? And what would it mean for the industry?

In an extensive interview, Browne answers these key questions, and also addresses:

  • The logistics of getting a gambling regulator up and running
  • The impact on bookmakers
  • Curbing credit card gambling and VIP offers
  • The sponsorship dilemma
  • The Green Room, Paddy Power and Ivan Yates
  • Distinguishing between clients, and betting on machines
  • The prospect of affordability checks
  • Money laundering and gambling
  • The future of racing

*****

JW: You’ve said gambling is one of the biggest pieces of legislation in the past ten years. Extrapolate on that.

JB: There might be 400 sections. There are so many aspects to take into consideration, whether it is problem gambling around children, adults, age verification, things like opt-out limits, people who have addiction, demanding that bookmakers and other gambling institutions know their customers. What I want to develop is a culture of limits.

It goes into an awful lot of different aspects. Take advertising. We’ve been there with tobacco and alcohol. Advertising and gambling have evolved so much; horse racing is so intricate with that. There are a lot of challenges. Bringing a regulator in will require a massive amount of legal work within the bill alone. I am determined to get it done.

We’d a draft bill back in 2013 and a lot of work went into it but it didn’t get too far. Bits were picked out for the 2019 Act. The other reason it’s going to be so big is our laws around gambling are analogue laws in a digital world. They are so outdated they have almost no relevance to modern gambling.

Look at recent times. Twelve years ago, there was a whole debate about a casino being proposed in County Tipperary and the dangers of having a casino in Ireland. Every 12-year-old has a casino in his back pocket now. Already, Tipperary looks a quaint debate. Not only is this legislation being brought into the modern digital age, it needs also to have a flexibility built into it so that gambling changes will allow the regulator to have the flexibility to move with those times without needing more primary legislation. 

JW: You mentioned 2013. Might the gambling regulator be up and running ten years on from that?

JB: For the legislation you are probably looking at early 2023 for it to be fully enacted. But there are two important steps very different to 2013: the regulator will be appointed in the autumn. Once the regulator is in place, he or she will drive the legislation. He or she needs something to regulate.

What we are trying to do is get the regulator appointed and then the regulator will hire staff, 80 to 100. They can get their location, start hiring their staff, and they would be ready to hit the ground running once the legislation is passed. We are trying to get the two of those to dovetail. The other difference with this legislation is the scheme should be ready in the summer once we get the stakeholders’ input into the scheme. That will be gambling bodies, mental-health professionals, people who have addiction problems, stakeholders across the board. We need to get that legislation to the second stage, into the Dail, hopefully in early 2022. Once the second stage is done and the regulator is in place, I feel things are locked in and it will be a matter of driving things through as quickly as possible after that.

JW: That is a lot of staff.

JB: It is an estimate but that’s the figure put to me. Look at the size of the gambling world. An awful lot of gambling is based in Ireland and going to other countries. The regulator is going to be responsible for all licensing of a huge industry. He or she will be responsible for all licensing, that is at the moment the job of the local authority, the Garda Siochána, the Revenue Commissioner, the Broadcast Authority of Ireland in relation to advertising. He or she will be taking on a huge amount of work overseeing a huge industry. But the aim is the regulator will be self-financing. So the licensed gambling organisations will therefore pay for the gambling regulator so it will not be a draw on the state. It will be a draw on the state for the first couple of years.

The impact on bookmakers

JW: What might this cost bookmakers?

JB: We need to work out exactly how much the regulator will cost and it will be up to the regulator to ensure the licensing fee is sufficient to cover the cost. At the moment there’s no estimate but maybe we should have a realistic one in the autumn. Licenses will cover business to business, business to customer, customer to customer license as well. Where you have some betting online where customers are on the betting exchange. There will be different licenses, different fees for the different licenses, different regimes. A balance has to be sought. Who is paying the bigger share?

JW: When you say customer to customer, that is interesting. Obviously I can bet on Betfair and do whatever I want. You seem to be in tune with the fact that gambling is changing a lot, with the betting exchanges and all that. Anyone can lay a horse. That is an issue. Could customers have to pay some sort of a license fee themselves or what might happen?

JB: Not the customers themselves but the provider of the facility might have to pay some sort of licensing fee. That could be minimal. That will be a matter for the regulator. We have to take the constitution into account too. We have to be very careful to not intentionally encroach into people’s freedoms. Why this is taking time: there are an awful lot of unintended consequences. The customer-to-customer side of it will take further thought. That’s why it is important that when the scheme is published stakeholders can give their views.

Curbing credit card gambling and VIP offers

JW: It is a delicate balancing act. On the one level, kids might be watching their favourite football team but being inundated by bookmakers advertising the odds of the next goalscorer at half time. At the same time in the racing press there will be a lot of talk about the British proposal of stringent checks on affordability. You have referenced this yourself. What is your take on this?

JB: Around the affordability, we are looking at it. As you say there are concerns about freedoms and rights of people. If I have ten grand and I want to put it on a bet, why should anyone stop me? At the same time, people are gambling money they do not have. It won’t be a case of demanding people show how they got their money, can you afford this? Almost like anti-money laundering, demanding proof of a source of wealth.

But issues like where restrictions can be put in place is an end to credit-card gambling. We can allow people to opt out when someone recognises he has a problem: he can notify the regulator, who in turn can notify the institutions: this person wants a block on any attempts to gamble.

We’ll be putting an end to encouragement. If you are gambling regularly, you stop and the next thing you are being offered from a gambling organisation better odds or a free spin or whatever to lure you back in. I want to see an end to credit cards and credit gambling. A lot can be done without undermining gambling organisations or the racing industry dependent on the gambling industry. That the racing industry is reliant is not ideal that it is but that is the reality.

“Those who benefit from gambling, namely gambling, organisations, should pay to treat those who are suffering as a result of their gambling.”

JW: Paddy Power has reportedly effectively closed its VIP section, as has Betdaq.

JB: I am not going to talk about any individual organisation. But I welcome seeing any organisation ending this practise. It is a practise I do think is quite a negative practise and shouldn’t be happening. I want to see it legally ended within this bill. Before this bill is passed I’d welcome and encourage any organisation to end this, a very negative activity to be pursuing people to carry out further gambling, especially if you had pulled back from it, having thus acknowledged a problem.

The thing with gambling addiction, I’ve dealt with its consequences in the courts and as a barrister. A drug or drink addict, it’s transparent, you can see the descent, you can see what they are doing. You might be able to intervene. When someone has a gambling addiction, very often the first you find out is when they are after spending money they don’t have so the sheriff is calling to repossess goods, the bank is repossessing the house, or even worse the person has been arrested because of stealing money from the workplace or used fraudulent cheques or taken money out of a charity to fund the addiction.

The devastation onto the family is unbelievable. By the time family members find out it is very often simply too late. Gambling addiction is a non-substance addiction but, like any addiction, from what I understand it is not about money. The win is some sort of crutch that the person has out of mental health challenges or issues. This winning feeds into a sense of self-worth. It is the win, as opposed to the money itself. We have to realise there is a mental-health aspect behind this, the same as any addiction. When you are looking to treat somebody with a gambling addiction, we have to find ways to treat the reason the addiction developed in the first place. Like any addiction it is more symptom than cause.

JW: You will be aware of Declan Lynch’s book Tony 10, given the County Wexford connection.

JB: It can go very very wrong. I was never involved in that case but a number of others. I saw very good people who never had any contact with the Gardaí or justice system suddenly find themselves with some very, very serious charges and a family destroyed. They did wrong and deserved to be held to account but if anybody in the family knew at an earlier stage, an earlier intervention could have been put in place. It is one of the aspects of the bill: there will be a social fund for the regulator to aid treatment, education, awareness and research. There is very little of that in Ireland. The HSE does not have a very strong regime for non-substance addictions and I think this fund will be able to provide treatment. Those who benefit from gambling, namely gambling, organisations, should pay to treat those who are suffering as a result of their gambling.

JW: I think there is a willingness from the bookmaking industry to work with you and accept responsibility on this?

JB: Absolutely. I’ve seen very little resistance to any proposals. I’ve consistently said: this is not about ending gambling or organisations. It’s about a culture of limits, that people who are developing addictions can get the treatment they need, can stop themselves with blocks in place, it is about ending potential targeting of children, normalising gambling among young people, trying to end that deep connection that has developed between gambling and sport. They are very closely linked, which is unhelpful as well. It is all around tackling the fallout. A bit like drinking. I drink, my friends drink. There is nothing wrong with drinking but ensuring a culture of limits: you know when it is too much, you are not allowing it to be painted as something completely harmless when it can be quite devastating when it goes too far.

JW: It’s interesting you reference that. For a lot of people, and it may have happened unbeknownst to them, they can’t really divorce a sporting event from the odds involved. That’s a dangerous area?

JB: It is. You see whistle-to-whistle gambling, it has become so entwined with sport that it is difficult to separate the two and I think that is deeply negative. That is not what sport is about or what it was ever supposed to be about: escapism and a sense of enjoyment, not bringing in the real world with you. Sport is increasingly relying on gambling.

A gap was created. We targeted tobacco and alcohol advertising and rightly so. A lot of sporting bodies that previously would have relied on alcohol or tobacco sponsorship have now turned to gambling sponsorship. Clubs do great work. I understand that. They need to survive. But I do think we need to target advertising around gambling as well. It is everywhere. I’ve even noticed on my Facebook feed. I’d never have seen gambling ads but since I started to try to tackle the issue of gambling my Facebook feed is full of gambling ads from different gambling organisations. It speaks for another issue around how Facebook knows what I am googling.

JW: A beautiful irony there.

JB: I am definitely targeted by the algorithms. Look, there are no limits there. Facebook knows my age but I could have put any age when I signed up. Whatever gambling organisation is targeting me on Facebook, it doesn’t know how old I am but the algorithm is telling them I am interested in gambling. Let’s target him. We need to see all of that being addressed through limits on advertising.

The Green Room, Ivan Yates and Paddy Power

JW: Ivan Yates’ show, The Green Room, is described by Virgin Media as “an entertainment show highlighting all the news, issues and fun from the world of sport.” Anyone who knows the game will see Paddy Power all over it but the sponsorship is packaged in a subtle way too.

JB: There is an increasing problem around that with influencers online promoting a product when in fact they are paid substantial amounts of money. Online has facilitated the blurring of lines between different media but also international boundaries have become irrelevant. We will take a lot of work with this legislation. There need to be very clear lines: a lot of these blurring of the lines are there because of a lack of legislation. We have black and white laws for colour TV. It needs to be resolved.

The sponsorship dilemma

JW: Your own party is proud of the role it played with the smoking ban. We’re always proud when Ireland leads on something. Is there similar potential for the legislation here? As much as you might be a bit tied in with reference to Britain, in terms of gambling advertising for example, there is a chance here to really make a difference. If you are a kid going to a game, you see ads for gambling, your favourite team wearing a gambling sponsor, I have seen Liverpool promoting the odds of the next goalscorer with Bet Victor. The FAI was linked with a Paddy Power sponsorship. Could we do something strong?

JB: We need to be strong on this. When you reference those steps taken by some of the clubs by the UK, when you have sponsorship on a jersey, to a certain degree it’s passive advertising. I personally don’t believe where you have young people going to sport that they should be seeing gambling ads. But when you see clubs pushing gambling, that’s actively promoting gambling. Maybe I am splitting hairs but it is not something you want as they have huge influence on young people. I was a big Manchester United fan and when I was a kid they were gods to me. Roy Keane, Eric Cantona, anything they said or did you would hang on every word. I do think that deep link between sports and gambling needs to come to an end. Not a complete end of gambling advertising around sports, but certainly proper limits.

JW: You mention the stakeholders. I work for bookmakers but also feel the pain of punters who bet safely and who are getting their accounts shut down. I feel they are ignored in this conversation.

JB: You are 100 per cent right. It is a part of this that doesn’t get as much attention but consumer rights have to be a fundamental part of what we are going to do. We want to regulate the gambling industry and the gambling regulator and bill – both of those are going to be public-health orientated. Public health is their mandate but consumer protection is massively important as well.

That has been the wild west out there. If you are a consumer of a gambling company, you have almost no rights. I’ve seen the real-life experience of that. Consumer rights have to be a fundamental part of what we do. That is what you will get. The industry online is simply not regulated at all. It is not even that there is bad regulation. There is no regulation. That impacts on consumer rights. By bringing gambling into a fully regulated system, that will also mean that consumers will have their rights against those organisations. The gambling regulator will be there, licensing these organisations. They will have duties to comply with. The consumer will have rights to ensure that these organisations are adhering to the legislation, regulations and rules as set out by the regulator.

JW: Are you are aware of the recent gamble on the three long-shot horses in a treble which ran up liabilities of eight figures for the bookmaking industry? Accounts were opened up, bets placed simultaneously. A punter should be able to get a bet on, but at the same time bookmakers do have to deal with stuff.

JB: I am not aware of that bet but yeah, that can and does happen. Sometimes a consumer gets a win which is great but all of those aspects would have to be looked at. You also have to consider too is any money laundering going on. That has to be taken into account. We have our anti-money laundering bill going through the Dail at the moment. If we can get this legislation passed, get the regulator in place, an awful lot of these issues will simply fall away and when you have a regulated situation, people have a greater fear of taking advantage of loopholes. If that does go wrong, you’ve a powerful regulator in place. There is flexibility in this, such that the Minister will have power to draft regulations. There will be a feedback loop where the regulator feeds back to the Minister, what changes are working or not working, changes that may need to be made, to tidy up stuff in practise. Regulating something as big as this for the first time, you will not get it fully right off the bat. Then we can go back and maybe put a bit more nuance on it, perhaps it needs to be tweaked.

JW: You talk about stakeholders. There is talk of a punters’ representative group being set up – would you welcome that?

JB: Absolutely. Once the scheme is passed, anything is welcomed, to ensure it is robust legislation, covering the many different aspects: public health, consumer rights and regulating the industry. They are really important, that the legislation has been tested and is robust.

JW: Will there be separate legislation for sport and gaming? Loot boxes allow players to spend money on in-game rewards such as special characters or equipment, without knowing what they will get. You have spoken about this too.

JB: In fairness to most gaming companies they are very strong about stopping gambling on their gaming but that is proving difficult. Under current legislation, we’ve seen other countries ban loot boxes, or serious restrictions. Even though you may not get a real-world win, there are aspects that maybe encourage addictive type behaviour. While it may not be considered gambling, worryingly actual gambling online is increasingly mimicking gaming. Bright colours, sold as fun, sold as entertainment, there is a blurring of the lines between the two. That needs to be very carefully looked at and it will be carefully legislated to ensure a clear demarcation between what is gambling, what is gaming, if needs be. Young people are vulnerable, more so during the covid, due to loneliness, being at home and bored, looking at ways to entertain themselves.

Distinguishing between clients, and betting on machines

“Business to business, business to consumer, consumer to consumer. A level playing field with a public health overview.”

JW: At present online bookmakers treat risk by adjusting risk factors per customer. Can this stay the case?

JB: There’s not a definitive decision there but certainly my view is you should not be distinguishing between clients. That can be interpreted as targeting. If you can lower the odds for some consumers, you are encouraging people to bet.  I think that needs to be addressed. Once we get this legislation passed and the regulator in place, the regulator will have to watch all of that and can recommend to the minister. A constant feedback loop.

JW: That would be a game-changer?

JB: It’s my personal view. We are drafting the scheme. We really have to think it all out. As we go deeper into then legislation, I do not want it to become so unwieldy that it becomes outdated. There will be some aspects that will be left over to regulation than the bill itself – that might be one of them.

JW: In betting shops will there be a limit on what can be bet on the machines?

JB: Spend, stake and speed are the aspects to certain types of gambling. For some situations you do not even need to push a button any more, it just keeps doing it for you. There needs to be your intervention. There are aspects to be looked at but I don’t have an answer to that. More particular aspects will be left to regulation.

JW: Is there a danger that firms would be put off getting a license here?

JB: I do not think so. We’ve a very large gambling industry. The licensing should be straightforward. My sense is there is very little pushback from the industry players, most would like to see it regulated. It’s not there to hinder or prevent organisations from carrying out their business but facilitating them to do it in a safe and regulated manner. I think they would welcome that everyone is on a level playing field and they are not looking over their shoulders. If you go back to previous suggestions around gambling legislation, there were going to be a myriad number of licenses there. We’re trying to keep this as simple as possible. Business to business, business to consumer, consumer to consumer. A level playing field with a public health overview.

The prospect of affordability checks

JW: Might affordability checks for gambling be a step too far?

JB: The promotion of safer gambling must be a priority objective, not only for the Regulator but also for the gambling operators themselves. The new gambling legislation will have clear licencing conditions to ensure safer gambling. A range of measures are being considered and conditions such as strict observation of age limits or a ban on gambling on credit are likely to be included. ‘Know you customer’ measures including affordability tests are being looked at too but these tests are certainly more complex and we are seeing this is the case for other countries too.

JW: Is there concern excess regulation would drive gambling into speak-easy territory?

JB: As with any sector, it is important that the right balance is struck between fair and necessary regulation. Licensing and regulation should be proportionate and transparent. The gambling sector is a large employer within the Irish economy and we won’t lose sight of that but it has been evident for some time that the industry needs regulation as what has been in place is outdated. I see the establishment of a regulator as having dividends for the industry too as it will be a legally robust framework for the operators to work in. What we are putting in place for the sector and customers is largely in line with what other countries have already implemented so I think the industry is prepared for that and will be on board for clearer and streamlined licensing and regulation. We want to establish equitable regulations that are fair both to the industry but critically also protect consumers and promote safer and responsible gambling.

Money laundering and gambling

JW: How much of a concern is the issue of money laundering in gambling?

JB: As you will be aware, there is already legislation in place but the plan is that the regulator will take over the supervision of the gambling sector for anti-money laundering and counter terrorist financing compliance purposes once it is operational. We are confident that we have solid structures currently in place to combat money laundering, not just within the gambling sector but also across all areas of industry. In 2018 an assessment of the national risk in the sector was conducted and it found the risks of money laundering and terrorist financing in Ireland in the gambling sector to be medium-low. We are conscious that this in area that requires constant vigilance. The Gambling Bill will have as a key objective the need to combat anti-money laundering attempts through gambling activities.

The future of racing

JW: The racing community will be concerned about the funding model.

JB: The racing industry is hugely important to this country. I think it has nothing to fear. We are not trying to end gambling or end the links between sports and gambling. It is ensuring regulation. The vast majority who go racing put on their bets and do not have problems. It’s about those few who have problems and educating people about the risks too. I come from a place where people live and breathe racing in Wexford, a proud part of our culture. The effects on racing will very much be taken into consideration.

JW: Do you bet?

JB: I’ve had the odd bet. A couple of my friends bet regularly mainly on racing. My fear of losing money stops me from gambing any more.

JW: Is there cross-party support?

JB: There has been for a long time for gambling reform. It hasn’t happened because of the level of complexities. This will not be plain sailing, especially once the scheme is published. Some would just like to see gambling banned, some would have the view the state has no business to regulate anyone’s private activities. We’re going to try to land in the middle.

JW: Is it odds-on that this will be in place by 2023?

JB: I believe it will happen. The difference this time: there are two markers to ensure it happens. The gambling regulator needs to be appointed, by the autumn I hope, then it is very embarrassing for any government or Minister that there’s a regulator who has nothing to regulate. Then the second stage is in early 2022, then it is not just a scheme.

JW: This will save lives?

JB: Absolutely. Any addiction can lead to suicide. With gambling it can spiral so quickly. Family, friends, work, people have taken their own lives as a result of this. Suicide is never the answer. I don’t want to exaggerate the legislation but having a culture of limits will let people know that help is there, they can put a block on their gambling, also for their family members. They can reach out to the regulator too. The social fund that we have put in place to support awareness, education, research and treatment will also save lives.

Growing up in politics

JW: Whilst your father, John, was a veteran Fianna Fáil TD until you replaced him five years ago, this was not necessarily going to be your path in life.

JB: I always had an interest in international politics. I grew up watching a lot of the Vietnam War and US politics, Nelson Mandela and that sort of politics. I’d have pushed against elected politics: when you grow up in politics there’s a sense of intrusion and as a youngster you want to play football or hang out with your mates. Politics follows family everywhere it goes.

I loved practising the law but what I really got a sense of was how making and changing the law can have a real impact on people’s lives so I felt I could better put my experience and legal knowledge to use in the Dáil as a legislator and also as a TD, starting as a town councillor.

I said if I am going to do this I will start at the bottom, work my way up and get my handle on the basis of it. I never get anybody anything they are not entitled to but an awful lot of people do not get their rights that they need. That experience as a barrister is an asset to get people what they are entitled to. I absolutely love the job now.

JW: You were thrust into the role. How have you found it so far?

JB: Loving it. It takes a couple of months to find your feet and it is very different in opposition, where you get your few minutes to give your views on how the government of the day is performing; hold it to account. I see it from the other side: when you are in opposition, you need to find out just one glitch in a government policy or minister’s action to challenge them on. In government you are trying to ensure there are no glitches, cover every little attention, any weakness in what you are doing.

That really is good: it makes you think properly about your policies, opinions, how they outflow into the real world. Being a barrister, this is the job I would have picked. I am delighted to be Minister of State in the Department of Justice, bring about law reform, and gambling is a major piece of law reform. It couldn’t have fallen any better for me.