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For The Currency’s B2B podcast, Larry Bass spoke with Alison Cowzer about the business of Irish TV and football. Both of which have been at the core of recent public debate and controversy. He believes that public service broadcasting is in crisis and that needs to be further up on the new government’s agenda after the election. He also spoke about how the League of Ireland is the beating heart of Irish football and is a space of opportunity for businesses to invest in.
During this podcast, Bass spoke about how:
- There needs to be more government action on protecting Ireland’s “public service content.”
- The importance of public service broadcasting
- Spotting the right formats and making them work for Irish audiences
- The “mistake” of Popstars and the success of Dancing with the Stars
- His background in music and starting out in Pirate radio
- How the areas of TV and sport intertwine as “modern day professional sport is sport entertainment”
- The scandal within the FAI and Irish football
- How football is a business opportunity
- The Euros and Ireland’s chances of reaching qualification.
Alison Cowzer (AC): Hello, everyone. My guest today is a man who will be well known to you in terms of the output that he produces and TV programmes that we are all so familiar with. Dragons Den, of which I have some information obviously, MasterChef, Voice of Ireland and Dancing with the Stars. That’s one of his passions. His other passion is football, as Chairman of Cabinteely FC. You’re very welcome Larry Bass.
Larry Bass (LB): Hi Alison, how are you?
AC: Good to see you. This is a bit like a turning of the tables. Normally you’re behind the camera on the other side and now we’re both talking into the microphone and I’m asking the questions. So, this is a bit unusual. But great to have you here.
I’ve mentioned those two areas. We might start with the TV side of things. That’s how we got to know each other. TV at the moment, in terms of what’s going on with RTE, public service broadcasting, content, the whole lot. It couldn’t be more topical. I know you’ve very strong views on the whole area, the future of TV and where we’re going. What’s your take on it at the moment?
LB: Well, it’s not very healthy at the moment. Unfortunately, we sort of have half a government at the moment, because this is being recorded during election time.
There seems to be no grasp of the requirement and need for quality public service content. And I’m saying content for a particular reason. If we continue to say public service broadcasting, broadcasting is rapidly changing. We’re moving from a world of broadcasting into a world of just content being available on many platforms, not just broadcast platforms. And that’s across radio, television and film. Content is now King. And the platform just happens to be where you get it. So, we have to have a policy that is reflective of a modern day. Unfortunately, in the last, I think 10 programme for governments, from various governments, broadcasting or public service content hasn’t even featured in part of programme for government.
So, when you have a situation where, in the cabinet nobody cares, there is no responsibility. Every minister to date, that I’ve been aware of, none of them have stepped forward with any sort of enlightened view of how to grasp the nettle. That is difficult. That is, how do you fund public service content? And public service content is required if we are going to have a culture that reflects who we are, who we are as a country. In terms of language, in terms of music, the arts, news, current affairs. In a world where we’re dominated with ‘fake news,’ public service broadcasting is the single best way to make sure that the body politic, in one way, but also democracy is protected by quality, balanced journalism.
They’re lucky in all of those countries because what protects their individual culture’s status is language. We unfortunately don’t have that protection.
Larry Bass
AC: Assuming, as the next government is formed, you are appointed Minister for Communications with particular responsibility for broadcasting. What would you do?
LB: Zero danger of that. Well, the first thing I would do is I would set out and have… I know Minister Bruton has announced he is going to have a task force to look at broadcasting and have a report later on this year. He announced that a couple of months ago before Christmas. We still have heard nothing about it. And that’s the type of lethargic view that really grates when there’s a crisis going on. You will have to have proper stakeholder consultation. That means talk to the audience. What do they want to hear? What do they want to watch? What’s important? And then talk to all the other stakeholders that form part of who we are as a cultural society. If we just leave it to the market… This is a business that if you leave it to the market, we will disappear as Ireland.
“If we don’t reflect who we are in our own stories and drama, how do people ever relate to what is Irish?”
AC: Does that mean a race to the bottom in terms of quality?
LB: Absolutely not. Some of the quality available on the likes of Netflix, Amazon, Apple, which is the newest player, is the best quality in the world, way higher than some broadcasters can afford.
AC: But without that Irish slant?
LB: Absolutely.
AC: Okay.
LB: And that’s the thing. We would become the 51st State of the US, in terms of US content. Or, despite Brexit we’ll be more British than some of parts of Britain because we would just be watching British TV and content.
AC: That’s interesting that you talk about public service broadcasting, or content as opposed to broadcasting, we hear so much about broadcasting in the sense most people would almost consider it to be current affairs and news only. But you’re considering the whole aspect of content. Drama, TV series, entertainment, all of that. And bringing an Irish flavour to all of that.
LB: It’s hugely important to have a broad mix in a public service schedule. And that’s where defining what that public service remit is, is critical. If you have a schedule that’s only high-end arts, news, current affairs, documentaries, you may alienate a large proportion of the audience. But if you want to have a big, broad audience that appeals to the widest possible Irish nation, you need to have an audience schedule that talks to them. Entertainment is key, sport is key, news, current affairs, documentaries, TV drama. If we don’t reflect who we are in our own stories and drama, how do people ever relate to what is Irish? And it saddens me when you walk around Dublin these days and you hear conversations, especially amongst I would say 15 to 25 year olds, and they have that North American twang in the way they speak and refer to things.
AC: And regional accents are disappearing.
LB: Yeah. And we are losing who we are. And I’ve said it, I’ve been criticised for saying, people died in this country to protect Irish culture and language. And now we have it 100 years later and we’re just letting it just disappear. And yet they can fix it.
AC: TV as almost a patriotic vehicle of who we are, what we do and how we portray and communicate that. That is something we don’t hear about in terms of debate. Either on the airwaves, in newspapers, online, whatever. How’s that going to change?
LB: Because people don’t actually really understand that the only time you’re going to miss public service broadcasting, and the likes of RTE and all its output, is when it’s gone. And it is going so fast that it will disappear. It disappears slowly in the first instance and then it just falls off a cliff.
You can’t compete if you don’t have a customer to commission it in the first place.
Larry Bass
AC: Can you see this happening in other countries?
LB: If you look at most of central and eastern Europe, public service broadcasting is dead. When the Iron Curtain fell, most of those national broadcasters, some of them had 100 per cent coverage. Some of them had shares under individual channels ranging from 60 to 70 per cent share. Now, they would struggle to have one or two per cent share. And the share is dominated by HBO Europe or Novell. All these new commercial networks. Now, they’re lucky in all of those countries because what protects their individual culture’s status is language. We unfortunately don’t have that protection.
AC: So, we merge into British, American or whatever.
LB: Correct.
AC: So how does that square with the new way of approaching programming, to a large extent over the last 20 years, which has developed around the format? So, an international format migrates across X number of countries, somewhat tweaked perhaps to the locality, but in general it’s a fairly tight formula. How do you make that work in the context of what you’ve been talking about?
LB: Public service broadcasting necessarily isn’t the vehicle for international formats per say. I think there’s an important part of a public service schedule that should have big high rating shows. It just so happens that some of the biggest high rating shows are international formats. And I look forward to the day when some of the shows that we produce or other companies produce here in Ireland start here and become international.
AC: Has there been any yet? Any success stories on the international front?
LB: You can’t compete if you don’t have a customer to commission it in the first place. We have a failed market in Ireland. We’ve a dominant public service broadcaster and we have a failed commercial broadcaster. They don’t have the resources. They’re competing in a failed market. In my belief, true belief, and I hope… I’ve been shot for less…. I would take all of the commercial revenue off RTE in a new RTE, I think RTE probably needs to be restructured, and give it a proper exchequer fund to produce public service broadcasting on behalf of the nation and then come up with how you bring that fund in. In some collection method. They need to be kept separate. Fix the amount, define what the output is and let them get on with it in a public service way. And then the commercial revenue that is in the country could all go to the commercial sector. Which would actually probably create competition and maybe bring in another player. And then suddenly you would have a domestic market. At the moment, it’s a completely failed market. The commercial rates are driven by what RTE charge as a dominant broadcaster. And in some cases, it’s actually cheaper to advertise on Irish television than Irish radio.
Can you imagine dealing with any urgent issue at government and saying we’ll look at it in five years, it’s just preposterous.
Larry Bass
AC: So the model perhaps doesn’t fit the current structure. From a business perspective, brands and businesses that want to participate in that I know struggle with the opaque scenario. How to get in, how to understand what your budget is going to be, what you’ll have to pay, all of that. But given the new media that we’re now dealing with, social media, the general future for TV, in terms of we hear young people are not watching TV, yet your ratings on some of your more successful programs seem to throw that out the window.
LB: Younger generations are watching content, just not watching it in the traditional form. You ask somebody probably under the age of 20 what a TV schedule is and they’d look at you like you had two heads. Or the listings page in the newspaper… What’s a newspaper? Who reads newspapers anymore? What’s the RTE guide?
These are things which will be in the pantheon of items from yesteryear in the not too distant future. So, now future generations will just want to watch content. They’ll find that content through social media, through their peer groups. Somebody will say, ‘I’ve seen X show, check this out, look at a link from this.’ That’s where people will start finding what they want to watch. And if we leave that schedule of content open to just Google, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram and have no ability to point people to Irish content, that’s where we fall off a cliff very, very fast.
AC: It sounds terribly urgent. Do you think the urgency is understood?
LB: No.
AC: At all?
LB: Look at the Minister’s statement. He said he is going to push out for consultation on the issue of a licence fee and the funding of programming. And he’s going to look at it in five years. Can you imagine dealing with any urgent issue at government and saying we’ll look at it in five years, it’s just preposterous.
“We had to restructure the company straightaway. It was a very big business lesson early in our career.”
AC: Clearly, that’s a somewhat negative view of the industry. But there’s so many positives in terms of the creative forces that are at play. The ability to spot the next really good format, bring it back to Ireland, and make it into a success. When you go to these conferences around the world, be at Cannes or wherever else, and you arrive and everybody’s trying to sell you their format or you’re trying buy the format maybe get it in for Ireland and competing with others. How do you spot the really good ones?
LB: Trial and error. The first one was a very big mistake.
AC: What was that?
LB: Popstars. I wandered into a conference, which I actually thought twice about even going. My wife talked me into going.
AC: You’re not going to blame Catherine for that, are you?
LB: No, but I actually do give her great credit because she really did talk me into it. We had had a really bad experience on a corporate job here in Ireland. We lost a lot of money. We had to restructure the company straightaway. It was a very big business lesson early in our career. And I booked to go to a TV show called NATPE which is held every year in January, and it was in Las Vegas that year. I had booked a hotel, I paid for the pass to go to the conference and I was going “What am I doing going over here? We can’t pay next week’s wages. This is ridiculous.” And she said “Look, time out. Everything’s booked and paid for. You may just get a different view of things and come back.” And I literally wandered in. I hadn’t got a meeting booked. Wandered into a conference discussion on international formats and sat down. And it was on international formats moving into the US. They happened to be talking about a show called Popstars, which originated in New Zealand and the rights had been bought by an Australian company. And I sat there in a room, and having worked for 15 years in the music business, listening to this show about making a pop band, thinking this show was made for me.
AC: You started as a DJ?
LB: I started in Pirate Radio at age 13. That’s a long time ago. Then I worked as a sound engineer and rock and roll production manager. So, I worked in the music business.
And I sat in that room thinking about this show. I could get Cowell to be the record company exec, because I’d done tours with Simon Cowell in the UK. I’d get Louis [Walsh] to be a judge. We’ve done shows with Louis’s acts over here. And then we could populate it in that way and build it up. So, I went up and doorstepped the guy from Australia who created the show. His name is Des Monaghan. And I said to him “With a name like Monaghan, there must be a bit of Irish there.” And he said, “My father was born in Cork. My mother is from Dublin. Let’s go and get a coffee.” And literally that, by accident, walking into that room led to eventually, six months later, putting the show together. And that elevated ShinAwiL. ShinAwiL is 21 in 2020. Everything else flowed from it. I learned a lot about the international format business. I didn’t even know what a format was until then.
AC: Viewers probably didn’t either.
LB: It was one of the first. A couple came in around that time. I think Treasure Island had been on, another New Zealand show. And other shows followed. I think it’s really critical that the Irish audience have a mix of content. I don’t believe the schedule should be dominated by international formats. I think there’s a place for an Irish version of super successful shows. Why can’t we have our version of… But we need to be careful. We really need to try and find a way to create original new Irish ones and hopefully they will perform.
AC: We’ve done pretty well on the Irishisation. I know Dancing with the Stars particularly is almost viewed as even better than the BBC version in terms of how it’s put together. And they’ve been very complimentary of that.
LB: I suppose we were a little bit lucky in that when we did a show, it had been on in the UK for over 10 years and their set was fairly staid. We are bringing a new look and feel to it. And I looked at it, went to the set in Germany, went to the set in two other different countries, and we looked to the UK one, and then looked at what we could do with the budget we had. One of the things we knew we were able to do better than the BBC was the introduction of technology via screens and graphics and really allow us to put a little bit more on screen in terms of quality. And it worked really well, thankfully. And the BBC have now employed the same graphics company.
AC: They’re looking to emulate what you’ve done? That’s quite a vote of confidence.
LB: It’s not emulating, it’s all of these shows all the time. You continually try to improve. And even this year, we’re in our fourth season. We’ve introduced new screens this year, which have a higher density than the ones we would have used in the past. So, the quality should be higher when you’re sitting at home. We’ve changed the graphics. We’ve lifted the size of them in the studio. It’s one of those shows that thankfully, if you can cast it, and that’s always the big if…
AC: Does everybody not want to be on telly these days?
LB: See, it’s not everybody who wants to be on that you want on. And you have to try and get a mix that talks to a big, broad audience. It’s a show that works incredibly well for a full family audience, whether it’s an 88 year old…
AC: Not many of those shows left.
LB: Yeah. And RTE are currently looking for a replacement. That’s the way that television works. We’re commissioned for this year and next year. But what’s going to come in in 2022? So, they are out there looking, and they have put that call out to other ‘indies.’ We’ll obviously look at what we can do. But right now, I haven’t seen anything else in the world that can deliver a big, broad family audience as good as that show. So, we’ll see.
“League of Ireland football, unfortunately, it has been the poor relation of Irish football for generations.”
AC: Okay. I mentioned at the outset that your two big passions are TV content and football. So, from one area that needs massive transformation to another.
You’re chairman of Cabinteely United. And involved, to some extent, in the FAI and what’s going on there at the moment. So, the future of Irish football, is it viable?
LB: Oh, absolutely.
Television, believe it or not, I might have been a bit negative on how television is today. But television, the future of it, is very, very viable. It’s very dynamic. And we’re now moving to being an international content producer and producing for international platforms.
AC: That link between football and TV. They’re inextricably linked now, aren’t they, in terms of revenue streams?
LB: Yeah. I think modern day professional sport is sport entertainment, and it’s more the entertainment world. Television is part of it, film is part of it and big sporting events are part of it. If you don’t get your business right, in the sporting sense, you won’t have a business.
Ireland is the beating heart of Irish football.
Larry Bass
I think the future for Irish football, thankfully, is very rosy. Especially amongst young players. I think the squads we’re bringing up, in terms of young players, is one thing the FAI did very well, actually. Maybe by accident, but they did it very well and they put in national under-age leagues. Whereas, previously, the best players in Dublin or Wicklow or Cork or Limerick would play against the best players in their county. And occasionally maybe get to a regional or provincial game. Now you have the top teams playing the best teams in the whole country. So, the quality that they’re playing against every week is much higher. So, the quality of their skill base is developing at a much earlier level. We’ve a young guy who left Cabinteely a couple of years ago, went over to Derby County..
AC: He scored last weekend, didn’t he?
LB: He’s scored a couple of goals. Jason Knight, he didn’t lick it off the floor. His father’s a fantastic footballer and his brothers played professional football as well. But Jason is an incredibly strong, capable young footballer. Yet, I think he’s just gone 18. But he’s been playing at the very, very top level. You know, probably for 10 years at this stage. And he’s one example. There are many, many others.
AC: So, that grassroots, if we’ve got that grassroots level working reasonably well, the international team and the FAI and all that is clearly in massive crisis at the moment. But the League of Ireland itself, in terms of the viability of that, financially particularly, you’ve been brave enough to go into a new League of Ireland member…
LB: Stupid enough. League of Ireland football, unfortunately, it has been the poor relation of Irish football for generations. I think there is a moment now where we can actually call for and expect League of Ireland football to be a key pillar of the future of football in Ireland. And I think the new FAI, the Minister… We had a meeting with the Minister in the last couple of weeks. He used one of my phrases: “In my opinion, the League of Ireland is the beating heart of Irish football. Because it’s in every town…
AC: But people aren’t going to watch it. The crowds are abysmal.
LB: They are. And that’s why we’ve got to work on it. But if you don’t develop the business, the business will fail. The business has never been developed in Ireland.
AC: So, the gate receipts is a proportion of income, and the ability to pay wages for the players every Friday, and all of that. How does that model happen from what’s currently so far away from that scenario?
LB: It probably works in maybe two clubs in the country and that’s it. Shamrock Rovers have the great advantage that they use a stadium built by South Dublin County Council, which is what the council should, in places, do. Right across Europe, most of the big clubs play in municipal stadiums. In Ireland, we don’t have that. And I think if you don’t have the facilities, you can’t expect people to go and pay money. So, you need a product on the pitch. You need a facility to sit and watch in comfort. And you need to be able to bring the associations and their investment and, frankly, FIFA, UEFA and the FAI all in tandem.
AC: So, do you think that can happen, given the massive catastrophe, essentially, that has happened at the FAI? Are business, particularly, going to put their hand up now and say, ‘I’m going to back this.’ Or is it more about municipal funding?
LB: I think the clever businesses will get in early because they’ll probably get a good deal. I remember Arnold O’Byrne and Opel back in the day.
AC: He was involved in that way, way back in the very beginnings. He was the first man to put real money into Irish football.
LB: Yeah, and he got a big bang for his buck. So, I think there’s a real opportunity now for businesses. But right now, what you’ve got is a reconstruction of the whole business of football. And I think you will see something really good coming out of it. There’s a long way to go. But if you look at countries like Iceland, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway. They’re not countries that have huge populations bigger than Ireland, but in terms of their domestic game, they still have some of the best players go off and play in the bigger leagues, but in their domestic game, they still have proper professional teams playing in a professional league and it works. We do have a history of huge support for big UK clubs, and I think that’s going to continue for many, many years. However, I think if we can build our products, make it stronger, if the results on the field for particular teams do well, the clubs will do well. If you look at two examples. Shamrock Rovers have continued with South Dublin County Council to develop Tallaght Stadium. It’s now one of the best stadia in the country. It regularly gets many thousand home games. And Derry City, again, a stadium built by Derry City Council in conjunction with Derry Football Club, and that stadium pretty much is a full house for every home game. So, it can be done. Sligo Rovers have invested in their stadium in Sligo and Sligo is a small town, not even a city, and regularly gets some of the biggest attendances for games In Ireland.
I always look at the development of Irish rugby as a way that Irish soccer can go.
Larry Bass
AC: So, there’s a leap of faith from the business community required.
Just maybe to link those two areas. We’ve been talking about TV and sport. Is there an argument that the commercialisation of football, particularly, is taking the heart and soul out of football and corrupted some of what’s happening into a way that the beautiful game is no longer the beautiful game? What’s your view on that?
LB: That’s why I’m a free marketeer and I’m a big believer in regulation. How do you square that circle? You need to have rules. I think you need to have rules that define the limits to what people can do and where there’s no rules, things will get out of hand. At the very, very high end in football, I think sometimes it’s difficult to stomach some of the figures that get traded around for players. It’s not the worst sport. If you look at some of the US sports earnings: football, basketball. Figures are even higher.
It’s all defined by the value of TV rights. What’s happening in Europe, increasingly now, some of the TV rights are going to even bigger players. So, it was true of the likes of the big European broadcasters. And then there was the big satellite providers like BT Sport or Sky. And now, for the first time in the UK, we’ve other platforms coming in and buying rights. That from the likes of Amazon, and in the US Twitter have bought rights. So, it’s moving in that direction where those rights are becoming more valuable. But I think there has to be some rules, regulations around where the resources are going.
AC: For example, on international team coverage, be that rugby, soccer or whatever the international team is, how do you keep that to a point where the vast majority of people have a genuine opportunity to watch it?
LB: I think they did it quite well in the UK, where they legislated for what should be on free-to-air TV. So certain games and football have to be on free-to-air TV and certain other sporting events. Like the Grand National.
AC: What’s our legislation here on that?
LB: I’m not an expert on the legislative world.
AC: There would be a concern that it’s out of our hands and that…
LB: I think the All Ireland hurling and football, are legislated for. I’m not a 100 per cent.
You can see how important Six Nations Rugby is. It’s a big commercial winner. It is quite segmented. I always look at the development of Irish rugby as a way that Irish soccer can go. Irish rugby was an amateur sport not too long ago. And now, the best team in Europe is in Dublin.
AC: We’ve only got four provinces. Could we survive on four clubs?
LB: No. But I do believe there is an ability to have at least four competing regularly for European places. And you will then have a hinterland of other teams who play into that supply players. And if you look at all the countries around Europe, whether it’s Spain where you’ve got three or four clubs dominating Spain, in Germany where one club has been dominating for many years, in France where it’s now starting to become one club, in Italy where four or five clubs have been thereabouts. And I think in the UK, in England, probably five clubs, top five/top six, really are at a level way beyond everyone else. And in Scotland it’s been two for many, many years. So, it can’t be done.
“There was hundreds of thousands of people having fun. And the city will have that.”
AC: One other aspect just on the football side of things, I know you were pushing for an All Ireland League. Is that something you feel strongly about?
LB: Well, it wasn’t necessarily me pushing for it. We had a very good presentation by Kieran Lucid and his team who are proposing looking at the feasibility of an All Ireland League. And if you look at the country as just one island… I’m a big believer in great competition, whether it’s in sport or whether it’s in business, competition is the spice of life. It sharpens your pencil, it makes you really try and compete. And you really need it to be the best you can. I would think that the fans of Shamrock Rovers or Cork City would relish the thoughts of Linfield coming down to play them. The reverse is the same. Cork are going to Belfast to play Linfield. We have moved, thankfully, past the peace process. The country is changing. We’re not fully there yet, but normalising things like sporting events as part of the process. And I think it would actually be in the benefit of the game and you could structure the lower level leagues better. So, you could have a very strong Premiere League with the top teams in the whole nation. And we play rugby across the whole nation. We play hockey across the whole nation. We have boxing across the whole nation. The foundation of the FAI in 1921 was a function of the partition of the state.
AC: So, we’re not going into politics. We’ve been on TV and sports, so let’s not drift into the political side. But maybe just to finish up, the Euros are coming up pretty soon. And wouldn’t it be great if Ireland could move forward from the disaster that we’ve seen on the administrative side of the game, and the business side of the game, and the financial side of the game. What’s your thoughts on qualification?
LB: You know, we have a chance. I think Mick McCarty is a wily old character. Slovakia, I think, is where we’re going to play the first game. And then if we were lucky enough to win that the next game would be in Belfast, I think. If Northern Ireland… I think they’re playing Bosnia. I’m not sure. I’ve forgotten the actual next games. But I think it’s two games. They’ve got to win two games. It would be absolutely fantastic if that event… Because I’ve been to the Euros. I was lucky enough to bring my Dad.
AC: I mean, It’s in Dublin, so many of the events.
LB: Exactly.
AC: How awful would it be to end up with a massive tournament in our cities, with no Irish involvement?
LB: It would be hugely disappointing. I think the event would be just a much bigger event if Ireland, North or South, were actually in. But it’ll still be a big event. And I’ve been to the Euros. I’ve been to those events. And the city, when I was in Paris when Ireland played Sweden, and last Euros and the whole city, it comes alive. The craic was mighty. The restaurants were full. The bars were full. The streets were full of people. That park right in front of the Eiffel Tower…
AC: The fan zone?
LB: Yeah. There was hundreds of thousands of people having fun. And the city will have that.
AC: It maybe the shot in the arm, the football needs.
LB: I think it’ll be two things. It would be great for the city and great for people too. And it really would really be great for football in the future. I think financially, it would be so incredibly important for the FAI to get that shot in the arm as they try to reconstruct and build for the future. And Euro 2020 can then have a legacy that the FAI can be reborn from.
AC: On that positive looking note we shall finish up. Thank you very much Larry for joining.
LB: Thank you.
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